Using micropigment ink in Canon BCI-6/CLI-8 dye ink photoprinters

mikling

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If you look at Epson's strengths and weaknesses, you'll see that printers like the CX5400 are really niche printers that have limited utility to the general population. The only real strength it has is the use of pigmented inks in all colors for longevity but most consumers are not looking for that.
Why does Epson keep pushing the longevity/waterproof aspect? because that is the strength of the piezo head. The weakness is that it is bulky and the nozzle density is low and cannot be made higher without increasing both size and cost. The piezo head is a high cost head, orders of magnitude more than a thermal head.

To get higher text quality on an Epson printer, you are facing two hurdles. First their use of dye for their blacks in their photoprinters like the R200 will have more bleeding right off the bat so you have to expect that. The next hurdle is that color pigment inks do not print on plain paper well. NOTE This is not the same type of ink in your PGI-5 etc despite the word pigment. The viscosity characteristics etc are totally different. Ink for the PGI-5 etc are optimized to minimize bleeding on plain paper.

With the above considered, you come to the conclusion that Epson cannot be a strong player in the office printer market and they are not. Their product for that market is distinctly niche despite their ads.

So if you do have an Epson photoprinter and want sharper text, use the Photo settings for better quality text output. This will slow the printer down dramatically. Want even high quality, turn off the high speed setting to allow the ink to dry between head passes. Your ink usage will go up though and you'll be waiting till Christmas as well. Same for the CX5400.

The key advantage of the Epson is that it's head is quite durable and can take lots of abuse. You don't need to worry about ink nozzle heaters being destroyed if the ink feed is poor, no purging of cartridges is required. The head is low temperature, ink is never heated. This is ideal for color pigment ink printing....but slow. Even the R200 can handle pigment inks well ...and considering its low cost, ...you can get an interesting versatile printer if you have both dye and pigment cartridges for swapping out depending on your printing requirements.

I always get a chuckle when a computer magazine reviews photoprinters like an R800 or R260 and then says that it's text output quality is not good. Did we expect otherwise?
 

lin

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Tin Ho, Mikling thanks for sharing the info on Epson CX5400 because I was eyeing for this one since it's rather old and seller might consider offering at a cheaper price. Your input on this machine is really helpful.

And thanks to Smile & pharmacist on your suggestion.

I think fotofreek hit the right note that if I really want to have archival ability in my print, I should consider getting printer that uses pigment ink like Epson or HP. That will really save all the hassle of attempting to modify Epson/HP pigment ink to make it possible to use on Canon printer cartridges that primarily uses dye ink.

So maybe we can approach this idea differently and challenge our mind to think whether it's feasible of doing it. Of course, eventually we might end up concluding that the idea is really not possible without damage to printhead/ clog up the tube leading to the waste ink tank /getting poor print result or all sort of other problems.

Thinking about Tin Ho post #20 who addresses various issue of smear, viscosity and surface tension etc.......

I am wondering, by diluting the pigment ink a bit with dye ink, we will kind of thin the pigment ink and that will help the ink to be able to flow through canon fine nozzles. Too much dilution is bad as it may lighten the color and smear will also be quite severe and not to mention the leaking.

And, could we add anything in to speed up the drying a tiny winny little bit more with some kind of substance? Hmm, like a few tiny drop of Isopropyl Alcohol etc (gosh, I read the label on Isopropyl Alcohol bottle at the drug/ pharmaceutical store that it is inflammable. Will it be hazardous to use, causing burning/'fire' etc...since inkjet printer uses heat to propel droplet of ink. Sorry I really have not much clue on chemicals).
 

fotofreek

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My sense is that ink formulation is best left to ink formulators. Issues of drying agents, viscosity, surface tension, pigment particle size, etc are more complex than one would think from looking at the containers of "colored water" that we feed our printers! For my needs the Canon dye based printers work for me for photo printing. On the other edge of my desk is a failrly high level HP mono laser printer for home business office printing. If I needed archival prints I would buy one of the more highly rated, moderately priced Epsons and find another corner of the desk on which to put it. USB connectivity is a great technology for using multiple printers.

A participant on the printer newsgroup who is an expert on Epson printers cautioned, years ago, against mixing dye and pigment inks. He advised that anyone wishing to stop using pigment based inks in a printer designed for them and switch to dye based ink use should use cleaning carts to totally flush the print head before switching. As I recall, there were some issues about ph that might cause clogs if the inks were inadvertantly mixed in the printhead. You could probably check compatability by mising a small batch and watching to see if anything precipitated or aggregated. That wouldn't let you know, however, if a Canon printhead designed for dye inks would tolerate any inclusion of pigment based inks.
 

fish

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fotofreek,
I believe that you are absolutely correct regarding archival prints. I am also considering an Epson after using (and testing) dye printers with OEM and aftermarket inks. I now have Canons (3000, 6000, 9900, and MP830) with Hobbicolors ink. Previously used Inktec with HP printers. No issues with clogs, but dissapointed with fading on both microporous and swellable papers (although swellable lasts a lot longer). Presently getting prints on Fuji Crystal Archive paper but would rather control my own printing.
 

mikling

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Simply put, mixing dye ink with color pigment ink is simply a bad idea and is grossly wrong. Pigment ink is tightly formulated to float the pigment particles. The technology of mixing dye ink will cause particle dropout and also possibly gelling depending on the situation. It is totally misguided if you just mix it. You have to know what you're doing.

Sometimes 1+1 is not equal to 2. A little knowledge misapplied can be dangerous or enlightening as long as you are willing to learn from errors.
 

Tin Ho

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mikling said:
Simply put, mixing dye ink with color pigment ink is simply a bad idea and is grossly wrong.
Alotofthings sells a cheap pigmented black ink for BCI-3ebk and PGI5 that is a mix of dye and pigment based black ink. Hobbicolors also sells a black pigmented ink that is a mix of both. In general I have found it not true that you can not mix dye and pigment based ink. At least there is no problems for Canon printers for black text printing. For color inks I am not aware of any available though. No such ink exists for Epson printers either.

One solution for Lin is to print with multi passes. Print all the color graphics with an Epson using pigmented ink. Then print the black text on top of the prints with a Canon. The only problem I can see is alignment. But for the best quality of colors nothing beats dye based ink printing on coated inkjet paper such as Canon HR-101 high resolution paper. The colors will last 10 years but will be subject to water damage all the time. You really have to choose between quality on coated paper or longevity on plain paper with poor colors. HR-101 costs less than 10 cents a sheet. Plain paper is a few
cents a sheet too. Do you really need 100 years of longevity? Even if the ink can last up to 100 years the paper will not last for more than a few years. If special Epson paper is used still there is the text quality issue that makes it not justifiable for the cost of printing with pigmented ink using an Epson printer. As Mikling said, Epson's strength is in photo printing. For graphics you better print only large text only.
 

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Tin Ho said:
mikling said:
Simply put, mixing dye ink with color pigment ink is simply a bad idea and is grossly wrong.
Alotofthings sells a cheap pigmented black ink for BCI-3ebk and PGI5 that is a mix of dye and pigment based black ink. Hobbicolors also sells a black pigmented ink that is a mix of both. In general I have found it not true that you can not mix dye and pigment based ink. At least there is no problems for Canon printers for black text printing. For color inks I am not aware of any available though. No such ink exists for Epson printers either.

One solution for Lin is to print with multi passes. Print all the color graphics with an Epson using pigmented ink. Then print the black text on top of the prints with a Canon. The only problem I can see is alignment. But for the best quality of colors nothing beats dye based ink printing on coated inkjet paper such as Canon HR-101 high resolution paper. The colors will last 10 years but will be subject to water damage all the time. You really have to choose between quality on coated paper or longevity on plain paper with poor colors. HR-101 costs less than 10 cents a sheet. Plain paper is a few
cents a sheet too. Do you really need 100 years of longevity? Even if the ink can last up to 100 years the paper will not last for more than a few years. If special Epson paper is used still there is the text quality issue that makes it not justifiable for the cost of printing with pigmented ink using an Epson printer. As Mikling said, Epson's strength is in photo printing. For graphics you better print only large text only.
HP pigment black ink cartridge no. 10 and inktec black dye ink has no gelling. If you put too much pigment your print (is you have small nozzles like 1 or 2 pl) head nozzles will not print and you risk head overheat and damage. Other inks can be different
 

pharmacist

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Keep one thing in mind: Canon Pro 9500 is using Lucia pigment ink in bubblejet based printhead, thus it should be possible (maybe modified drivers) to use pigment ink in this type of printers. However, it is very likely that Lucia pigment ink has other physical properties than pigment ink used in piezo printhead. HP's Vivera pigment ink is used in bubblejet based printhead too. The key to go for is using HP's Vivera compatible refill ink in Canoncartridges to give it a try, well only PGI-41/51 to start with and see what will happen.
 

mikling

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Anyone ever looked carefully at the head and configuration of HP's thermal head pigment printers like the B9180 or B8850. Anyone wonder why they have redundant nozzles that are remapped when it detects there is a clog? Anyone looked carefully at Canon's IPF series of commercial pigment ink printers lately?

How many times do I have to state pigment ink for the Black Text printing and Color photo printing are formulated totally differently. They share the same basic principle of particles suspended in a solution but it ends there.
 

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The ink I wrote about HP pigment black ink cartridge no. 10 is used on HP Wide format Inkjet Plotter 500PS.
Color inks are CMY - they are dye based. The printer has removable heads that are changed once in three months or so. The dye color heads last up to about 6months.

The printer is under heavy load on coated / uncoted HP Hight bright inkjet roll paper.

Never heard about automatic nozzle remapping :|
 
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