Xrite Color Munki vs Colour Navigator - Eizo Monitor

3dogs

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See the section with the heading "Did You Know" here.
Great link - many thanks, heaps there I did not know at all or had slight understanding.

I trawled Eizo some time ago and did not see/find this.......must get glasses or a new computer :gig

Cheers

Andrew
 

3dogs

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Here is a 2010 comparison of several monitor calibration various systems.
Thanks for that link, adds to my data base and that is always handy.

The marketers really do SUCK folks in to bigger and better monitors, and the limitations of our printers and inks is too often NOT given proper priority..........

What this exercise HAS done is convince me that I MUST look at printer profiling again........Don't think I had it 100% clear in my own mind the relationship between the number of patches read to output and the practical effect of the software itself choosing the next nearest tone/colour.
If I am reading the Eizo link correctly there are colours that the printer will not print, I need to follow that further.......

However,

If I go outside now with my super camera top shelf card and no anti aliasing filter, shoot a scene and process it PROPERLY, then print using EPSON 3880 and EPSON OEM ink ( or my Cone) and send each of you a print of same.........How are you going to know which colours are off or missing from the scene I am representing...and what happens if I HDR or use some other filter/ screen.

@TheHat does non of this if he sent us all a print would we be sending it back with comments like.........."sorry Hat you stuffed up you have 35 shades of green missing 30% of you blue has shifted to the right and your black is woeful!!! "...........I think not!

:sick
 

Roy Sletcher

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Hi 3dogs

Your post sound so melancholy I feel for you!

Marketeers are charlatans and purveyors of false dreams. It has ever been thus.

Their function is to persuade you to loosen the purse strings and send your scarce after tax dollars in their direction. The nature of our free enterprise retail system is for their message to drown out the engineers and technicians. Choose your sources very carefully. (Says he who has followed the marketing hype down more rabbit holes than I care to admit - and wasted money on them)


The marketers really do SUCK folks in to bigger and better monitors, and the limitations of our printers and inks is too often NOT given proper priority..........

What this exercise HAS done is convince me that I MUST look at printer profiling again........Don't think I had it 100% clear in my own mind the relationship between the number of patches read to output and the practical effect of the software itself choosing the next nearest tone/colour.
If I am reading the Eizo link correctly there are colours that the printer will not print, I need to follow that further.......

However,

If I go outside now with my super camera top shelf card and no anti aliasing filter, shoot a scene and process it PROPERLY, then print using EPSON 3880 and EPSON OEM ink ( or my Cone) and send each of you a print of same.........How are you going to know which colours are off or missing from the scene I am representing...and what happens if I HDR or use some other filter/ screen.

@TheHat does non of this if he sent us all a print would we be sending it back with comments like.........."sorry Hat you stuffed up you have 35 shades of green missing 30% of you blue has shifted to the right and your black is woeful!!! "...........I think not!

:sick
Looking at your printer profiling may be a false start. Most reputable inkjet papers provide reasonable profiles for their papers using the main stream inksets. Certainly better than can be made with the average colormunki or Spyderprint, and good enough to move onto the real difficulties.

As for your comment about the printer not being able to print colours displayed on the Eizo, also remember your printer can print some colours that fall outside the gamut of the aRGB gamut and are not viewable on your Eizo. How do you propose to edit and process those colours?


Not sure what your last couple of paragraphs mean:

With a 16 bit colour managed workflow our final prints are controllable WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS OF OUR OUTPUT DEVICES. Usually a monitor and RGB printer for us amateurs.

Is it possible that you need to review your expectations? Contrast ratio for your monitor probably around 850:1 Contrast ratio of glossy inkjet paper - maybe 160:1. Brightness of a LED display versus brightness of paper sheet - NO CONTEST. need I say more

What do you expect? It is all measurable and controllable!

Hate to say this, but marketing is, well, just marketing. Reality strikes after the money has been spent!

Sorry to sound such a smartass - just my style trying to be brief. Interesting thread. Will resist the temptation to say more.

best regards

RS
 

3dogs

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Hi 3dogs

Your post sound so melancholy I feel for you!

Marketeers are charlatans and purveyors of false dreams. It has ever been thus.

Their function is to persuade you to loosen the purse strings and send your scarce after tax dollars in their direction. The nature of our free enterprise retail system is for their message to drown out the engineers and technicians. Choose your sources very carefully. (Says he who has followed the marketing hype down more rabbit holes than I care to admit - and wasted money on them)




Looking at your printer profiling may be a false start. Most reputable inkjet papers provide reasonable profiles for their papers using the main stream inksets. Certainly better than can be made with the average colormunki or Spyderprint, and good enough to move onto the real difficulties.

As for your comment about the printer not being able to print colours displayed on the Eizo, also remember your printer can print some colours that fall outside the gamut of the aRGB gamut and are not viewable on your Eizo. How do you propose to edit and process those colours?


Not sure what your last couple of paragraphs mean:

With a 16 bit colour managed workflow our final prints are controllable WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS OF OUR OUTPUT DEVICES. Usually a monitor and RGB printer for us amateurs.

Is it possible that you need to review your expectations? Contrast ratio for your monitor probably around 850:1 Contrast ratio of glossy inkjet paper - maybe 160:1. Brightness of a LED display versus brightness of paper sheet - NO CONTEST. need I say more

What do you expect? It is all measurable and controllable!

Hate to say this, but marketing is, well, just marketing. Reality strikes after the money has been spent!

Sorry to sound such a smartass - just my style trying to be brief. Interesting thread. Will resist the temptation to say more.

best regards

RS
Great to have your words of wisdom again, must admit I have difficulty reading you as a smartass ever, that runs counter to my impression.

Accepting limitations as a start point, then limitations need, for me, to be seen, or not seen, as the case may be. Given that my two Eizo's are as good as I am going to be able to access for now and I run a 3880 with Cone ink I got to thinking on what @stratman has said in the past, and pointed me to in the links he posted I conclude that I HAVE the best tools available to me for now ( counting cost and availability), so the one area that I feel could do with some thought is printer profiling.
Here is how I got to that conclusion :
Since installing Argylle members report improvements in their prints and screen. That system, like the top end commercially available systems run hundreds of patches, not the few that my Munki produces....to me that says that my unit is establishing the credentials of just a few colours so when my software goes looking for out of gamut colours to substitute to has a very limited palet to choose from, credentialed to standards wise (I assume!). This in turn assumes that having established a standard for those few colours the others take a corresponding shift.

Ergo many hundreds of patches credentialed and substitution is still a shot in the dark but at least its sounds like it may be a more intelligent shot in the dark, given that aforementioned shift does in fact take place.
My conclusion may be way off the mark, hence its offered here for correction if required....

To answer your valid question related to editing unseeable colours that exist in one space but not the other I had hoped that my comment relating to the fact that no VIEWER is ever going to know how much colour is shifted one way or another in either a print I enter in a comp or post on this site because there is no reference point. Provided the colours are within what a viewers eye may judge to be credible all is good, with or without much profiling.

I try to be smart enough consumer wise to navigate as close to clear lens expectations and avoid as much as possible the rosy lenses.

Also I don't feel compelled to pursue "true colour" down the very rabbit hole you and all of us get diverted into from time to time, I FALL down due to wrong thinking or just plain and simple " I want!! "

I am also in hopes that I convey the fact that I TRY hard to be a realist both with regard to my technical and artistic expectations and abilities such as they are.

With regard to the last couple of paragraphs.....at one end we have members that do just about all that CAN be done to establish the credentials of their colour output via profiling whilst @TheHat simply uses the inbuilt tools...........I often muse on the fact that there is a very high chance that if we all took a photo of a nominated still life subject then exchanged copies of the printed output such a blind test would NOT reveal which was which with any accuracy.

My question was not aimed any higher than this... will Eizo Navigator do what I have been doing with Munki....better or worse?
Eizo and Eizo sellers are saying better..... well time will tell... and what IS better anyway:hu

Cheers

Andrew
 
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Emulator

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The objective should be to use a monitor and printer with the same colour space, whether it be sRGB (most likely), Adobe RGB or ProPhoto (unlikely).

"Profiling", is however, one of the more entertaining aspects of inkjet printing, I get hours of fun!:)
 

3dogs

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Yes you are right it is fun, and the thing is it DOES make a difference. That is whats so damn confusing about the entire colour management process...at times it is like being in a room with no light and no walls where any object you encounter immediately rearranges everything else in the room!
 

Emulator

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My latest effort for the Canon9000 II is attached below. It is for Precision Colours revised ink set and microporous Satin Pearl paper. To use, re-name the .txt file name to .icm. It was produced using ArgyllCMS so there is no restriction on use. I should add that I used the Platinum N paper setting on the printer to ensure it will use all 8 colours.

See post#21 of this thread for the profile's performance information.
 

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3dogs

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My latest effort for the Canon9000 II is attached below. It is for Precision Colours revised ink set and microporous Satin Pearl paper. To use re-name the .txt file name to .icm. It was produced using ArgyllCMS so there is no restriction on use.
Thanks for that, what is PC's REVISED colours, I bought my dye ink just over a year ago and there was a lot of chatter that I missed paying attention to......so it was probably important and I should have stayed in the loop:confused:
 

Emulator

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It was Mike's effort to substitute alternative magentas, when some were finding problems with clogging. Should not be very different from your inks profile wise.
 

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