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Refilling Canon with OEM ink

Discussion in 'Canon InkJet Printers' started by martin0reg, Mar 17, 2016.

  1. Mar 16, 2019
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    The HP 727 cartridges come with both a dye pK and a pigment mK,
    see the 2nd page of the spec sheet of the T930 printer
    https://www.hpplotter.co.uk/sites/default/files/series/specifications/hp_designjet_t930_series.pdf

    idealo.de is listing HP 727 cartridges from 60€ and above for the photo black
    https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/3961882_-nr-727-schwarz-hell-b3p23a-hp.html

    ('helles schwarz' is misleading, the product label on the package states 'photo black')
    But it is nowhere clear how good the fading resistance actually is.
    Cartridges are available with 130ml or 300 ml - see the spec sheet.
     
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  2. Mar 16, 2019
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    Okay, a dye based ink set for a LFP / Plotter.
    But you said it already: much appraisal of the many advantages, certainly nothing about disadvantage . and not a word about longevity of the prints. That sounds very similar to the (older) canon printer series using BCI-1411, also LFP/Plotter wich are advertised for unexpensive grafics, for architects and other offices. But not for photography. And we know how they perform under UV light...
     
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  3. Mar 16, 2019
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    I think I found some relevant information, HP is describing the fading performance in some detail here
    https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/print-permanence.html
    I found some further data here
    https://hp.globalbmg.com/en/printpermanence
    You need to scroll down to the bottom of the window in the window, there is an entry for HP 727 inks on bright white inkjet paper, and the numbers in the columns for indoor and commercial window unlaminated are pretty weak compared to most other entries and the dark storage capabilities of photo prints with HP inks in the above link.
    So your assumptions appear to be correct
     
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  4. Mar 17, 2019
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    A test by Wilhelm Research shows and confirms your findings that the GT52 HP dye inks are far superior over the Epson 664 bottled inks, used in a range of L...and ET...series inktank printers, and much better as well than the resp. inks for Brother and Canon G series inktank printers
    http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/WIR_Ink_Tank_Printer_Comparison.pdf
     
  5. Mar 21, 2019
    Harvey

    Harvey Printer Guru

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    HP GT52 and Epson 106/512 are the best available.
     
  6. Mar 21, 2019
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    For Epson dye printers there are several very good replacements regarding longevity of the prints, like the bigger carts for Epson-Fuji mini drylabs, and recently also their smaller bottled ink
    But we can not use the epson (photo) black to replace the missing HP black ink.
    Because epson are all piezo type printers (cold nozzles) and canon/HP are all bubble jet type printers (hot nozzles), aren't they?


    Edit:
     
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  7. Mar 22, 2019
    Harvey

    Harvey Printer Guru

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    You are quite right. I was thinking of this impediment, but 3 colors for Canon is a big advance, just get a good quality black and gray ink for 4/5 color printers, and you will get a decent fade resistance. Remember that sometimes the weakest link as stated by others is the magenta or cyan. If you use the HP inks you have a good starting point, and you will not have significant color shifting.


    I am considering mixing Epson ink with Canon refill ink. I haven´t thought of the ratio yet, but I am willing to experiment. Perhaps a 25% Epson works. I was thinking of asking if someone has ever done this before. Black is weak with refill inks shifting to a brownish/reddish tone when it fades. Perhaps the mix solves this problem and doesn´t harm the printhead.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  8. Mar 22, 2019
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    I tried it long time ago - running an Epson refill black on an IP4000, it did not work, but mixing may be worth an attempt, starting with 25% Epson as you suggest and raising that ratio if it works. This is pure experimental at this time.
    Bubbles are gnerated by heat in the thermal printheads, resistors are heated up with current pulses to get the solvent to the boiling point, and when you change the vapor point with a different solvent you'll get larger bubbles or smaller ones or no bubbles at all with the same amount of energy.
    Weak dye black inks typically fade to a brownish chocolade type color. I observed an effect some time ago during my fading tests - with Epson compabible inks - that this color depends on the paper you are using, most glossy photo papers I was using let the black shift to brown, but the HP Premium Plus Photo Paper Glossy got the ink to shift to a gray tone which is not changing the color balance of an image - o.k. - the contrast is changing, the print is getting lighter overall after a longer period of exposure. Please see this posting how the same black ink shifts to different colors on different papers - to a muddy gray on the HP paper.
    https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/which-pigment-ink-for-epson-1500w.9323/page-19#post-92490
     
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  9. Mar 22, 2019
    Harvey

    Harvey Printer Guru

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    Thanks for your comments! I have a printhead that will allow me to do the test with mixed ink. I have an old Epson ND inkset. Prints made with this ink don´t turn the black brown on Canon Plus Glossy II, as with other well known Canon USA seller compatible ink. I will make the test in the next days to see if it works.

    I was told that maybe NOX caused the brownish effect. Diesels are heavily used around, but the ND inks don´t suffer from it. Perhaps it is bad quality ink, or indeed these Canon compatible inks are affected for NOX, but my Canon prints are terrible just after 2 days left uncovered. Not the same with Epson prints, and same paper used. I had read a simmilar post in another forum, an user had their Pro-100 B&W prints converted to sepia in 2 weeks. Same ink source.

    This is the reason why I want to experiment with the black ink mix. I have tested another european seller ink, prices are higher for his new version ink, but I can attest much better fade resistance than my problematic source. This inks don´t suffer the same brownish effect, and fade resistance is way better on black, but I am looking for a better black if I can find it yet. So all Canon users have a great quality inkset alternative. This ink was designed for Pro-100, but you can get any colors you need. This ink works great on a MG6120.

    I have sealed bottles of this affected Canon ink and I don´t want to use it anymore, now the seller it is not accepting a return. For my environment these inks are a real joke. Good news is HP give us a great ink quality, and it is cheap.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  10. Mar 31, 2019
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    I'm running a quick test with the HP 727 photo black ink (dye) against the Epson 106 ink - dye black,

    - the Epson ink does not show any fading, no luminance change after the first week

    - the HP 727 ink is getting dark brown, just visible at this time, a reading of the scanned patch - black exposed vs. a black ref print kept in the dark - shows a luminance change of already 7 (in the range of 255).
    This black dye HP ink is not particularly fade resistant, not as good as the HP GT52 CMY bottled inks.
     
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