Purging the PGI-9 cartridges

[mikling]

Let me further explain my hypothesis about the concentrated spot for refilling. Take a look at the orange shoe that are being used to speed fill.

Compare the paths of where the ink would flow.

You will notice that there is a dome indentation and the rest of the silicone pad is flat. The dome in the middle is essentially where the ink enters at that single spot when refilling with the orange clip The ink them goes through the pad and enters into the bladder and does not rinse out the sides of the pad or the channels. This is what makes me wonder if this has any bearing on the irregular behavior of the cartridge hat ran into.

We won't know unless when this happens again.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

The inner bag does not automatically collapse for one simple reason that there is a spring doing its upmost to keep the bag inflated,
so if air does not enter this bag then ink will fail to come out, it has to strike a balance. (Thats my theory on it anyway)(

Or maybe it's there to create a vacuum? Same function as the sponges in other cartridges.

 

[The Hat]

Thank you mikling for your extensive explanations on the working of the PGI-9 cartridge as you see it because I think youre mixing it up with the HP45 cartridges which are somewhat different.

Unfortunately my refilling experience and yours differ quite a lot so let me try to explain.

I refill my cartridges using both methods syringe and dribble just like Jtoolman
if the cart is empty then I use the syringe and clip but if topping up (Which is mostly) then I use the dribble method.

As far as this air theory is concerned yes there should be no air getting back into the cart,
but what I said was it sometimes can, again total conjecture on my part.
You said

No air is supposed to replace the ink inside the bladder. This is an important distinction with this PGI-9 and why when properly refilled each time,
they should be totally problem free unless something inside mechanically breaks.

In some of my carts when they empty the bag will collapse but thats not always the case some actually don't, now to say that these carts maybe damaged in some way could also be true, but the cart can also revert to the exact opposite the next time its empty again.

What could be happening is possibly settlement in the channels causing restricted flow I was pointing out is that when the slow method is used; it will naturally want to rinse out the internal channels of the cartridges If the fast method of refilling is used using the clip on arrangement, it possibly might not wash out the channels but cause it to build up sediment over time

I have added three more of you theories above to which I will answer best I can.

If I used the fast method exclusively which I dont then that method would clean (Clear)
out these channels far better than the slower method would surely.

Whereas on the other hand the slower method would probably have the potential to
actually cause these channels to clog up more than normal due to its much slower flow rate.

Finally what I said was that I reckoned that the clog problem was in the sponge itself
and not inside the cartridge at all but once again this cant be proven either.

We both could theorise with our own different points of view on the causes of this usual clog but one thing is for sure it can happen and we now know it can so let all be more aware of it.

I originally blamed the print head for my poor ink flow because I didnt think that it was ever possible to get a clog in these cartridges, I was certainly wrong on that count. (Hands up)

 

[mikling]

ThrillaMozilla has grasped how the PGI-9 uses the spring to regulate ink flow. This proper regulation is one reason why the chips work so well in estimating the ink level unlike the sponge applications.

I once mentioned the reason why these carts should always be stored rightside up as best you can for the simple reason that if the sponge outlet pad becomes too dry for whatever reason, the spring will have enough force to cause the diaphragm to open up because the air can infiltrate the pad. When the pads are saturated with ink, there is enough surface tension in the ink in the pad to totally block air from entering despite the spring creating the vacuum. Also the orange clip should always be on as long as the cartridge is out of the printer...unless one is refilling.

The fast method may well clear the path between where the ink enters at the orange clip and directly towards the holes entering the bladder. My curiosity is what happens to the other areas that the refill ink bypasses????

OK, let's lay out what we are dealing with on the table.
Pigment ink will ALWAYS have some settlement. There is no way around it. Even the highest quality ones will. Epson and Canon both have mechanisms to redisperse this settlement of solid pigment. With Epson, they started off by telling users to shake their cartridges before install, then they added metal balls internally in their cartridges (1900, 2880 etc.) to stir things up while printing. On the PGI-9, there are two inertia paddles built in on the opposite side of the piston. These paddles hang on the wall and they actually fan the ink internally as the 9500 printhead assembly does its dance, and you hear it rattling away. It literally stirs the ink inside. So sediment is expected by Canon even with their high quality ink.

The thing with settling is that it eventually builds up as it drops out again and falls. What is not clear is what happens to the small amount over time that settles inside the outlet pad and especially in the distribution channels???? The fast refill may not flush out all the channels for the reason that liquid always finds the shortest path when flowing between two points. It was only after Hat mentioned the issue of flow issues that this I suddenly realized I had overlooked this aspect previously.

This is of significance because as best I was told by the late tech of IS with decades of experience, color pigment ink and thermal heads should be dealt with carefully. It is one reason why HP has redundant nozzles on their printers similar for Canon wide format. Clogged or non working nozzles are remapped to spare nozzles so that the printhead does not have to be immediately replaced. The same facility is not available on desktop units like the 9500. Burnt on pigment on nozzle heaters is a nightmare condition for thermal heads. With dye ink, the deposits left can be small enough to wash off. With pigments it escalates in difficulty and significance.

So let's keep something in mind as well. The PGI-9 was not "made" to be refillable. However upon careful inspection, the only component that can possibly be compromised with long term use and refilling is the outlet pad and the distribution channels. It's a good idea to try and maintain this area as best you can to protect the printhead from possible ink starvation and the ensuing potential damage when refilling is done on a long term basis.

The user may choose any method to suit their fancy but I now think attention should be paid to the condition of the outlet pad and channels over time. Indeed Hat has been using his 9500 over an extended period and if there are issues from long term refilling he is likely to experience them first and this is one situation where his experiences can be of potential benefit to others that follow behind.

Again Hat's experience has brought something forward that had been overlooked previously. For this we must thank him.

 

[The Hat]

I am now recommending that it would be wise to purge these cartridges after 6 refills just to make doubly sure that they continue to function as normal, I have already started on mine and I've got another 28 to go.

Purging is not going to be a big problem with these cartridges either its just like refilling in reverse and it takes about two minutes to completely clean them out.

One of the biggest problems I found that I'm guilty of while using these carts is that there so simple to refill that I dont give them the respect they deserve or a second taught,
they are as reliable as a light switch you turn them on and they just work.

I am glad mikling we can both agree that all dough theses cartridges look simple in design they are far from it and it will take more time to figure them out properly, so dont go anywhere..

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

...these carts should always be stored rightside up ...for the simple reason that [otherwise]...air can infiltrate the pad.

I suppose the other thing that could happen is that you could get some pigment settling on the pad after prolonged storage, although settling during storage may not be much of a problem considering that the OEM ink could be stored in any orientation. Nevertheless, it might work just as well or better to store them on the side. That should keep the pad wet, and it would prevent settling onto the pad. You could even turn them over from time to time.

 

[The Hat]

...these carts should always be stored rightside up ...for the simple reason that [otherwise]...air can infiltrate the pad.

I suppose the other thing that could happen is that you could get some pigment settling on the pad after prolonged storage, although settling during storage may not be much of a problem considering that the OEM ink could be stored in any orientation. Nevertheless, it might work just as well or better to store them on the side. That should keep the pad wet, and it would prevent settling onto the pad. You could even turn them over from time to time.

I say store them one way and mikling says store them the other way but maybe you have actually settle it with your way..

 

[websnail]

Interesting discussion and I suspect there's instances where there's more agreement rather than the opposite but differing viewpoint/terminology being used so it can seem like there's a debate when the point is agreed.

Just to throw in a few things I've noticed from the work I've been doing on the PGI-9's this past few months, particularly with regard to the empty, dried out ones.

1. The OEM pigment ink appears to be water soluble in large part but does require patience to properly flush the cartridges out. In particular the speed fill approach is a great way of getting distilled water into the cartridge to flush the internal bellows/bag but you need to follow this up by soaking the sponge under a tap to break down any hardened/dried-up pigment that exists there. On average I found a good 24 hours was required to complete a proper flush with the bulk of that being to let the cartridge sit and soak.


2. As Hat has pointed out, the speed fill approach is great for that initial fill but finishing off with the dribble technique does two things...
a) it finished off the filling process with a little top up
b) it allows you to dribble ink into the whole of the sponge ensuring it's nice and moist.
It's also an excellent way of spotting any potential dry areas but hopefully you would have been looking for those before you started filling anyway.

EDIT:
3. Forgot to mention that without a modified clip, the process of flushing is much harder. The clip allows you to withdraw any water, cleaning fluid and/or ink from the cartridge properly so you can use whatever method to flush fluid into the cartridge but withdrawing with a clip couldn't be simpler.


Overall there's nothing to say there's a right or a wrong way involved and there's been a few posts where the wording could be interpreted otherwise. As the saying goes...

If it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid

Oh and as for storage, it seems pretty common sense to recommend a good shake of a stored cartridge and/or any bulk ink to ensure the pigment has not settled out.. and quite possibly consider a little dribble method top up if storage has been for an extended period of time. Probably belt and braces on that last but see prudence never hurt anyone.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

I say store them one way and mikling says store them the other way but maybe you have actually settle it with your way....

Yes, maybe. It just occurred to me that empty cartridges should be stored with the pad down to keep it moist. Otherwise I suggest on the side.

 

[rodbam]

Excellent information here that I'm carefully reading because there was a special on the Pro9500 bundled with $300 of Canon A3 paper so my missus made me buy one for $699, yes for once I wish I was a Yank
Now what is my safest refill method to begin with, dribble or the Freedom method? The thing that confuses me after watching the Hats & (Joe) Jtoolman excellent videos is the sucking out of air, in Joe's video he didn't suck air out before filling on a half full cart but the Hat sucked air out from an empty cart. What would happen if you just injected ink in without sucking out first?
The other thing that puzzles me is the cleaning/purging of these carts, I can understand how you put water in but how do you get the water out & get the cart almost dry? Edit. I've just read Martins bit about sucking the water out with a reverse of the Freedom method. Does this sucking pull the bag in too tight on itself if you over suck, or is the restriction you feel in the syringe all that's needed for not overdoing it?
I will be sober in the morning when I read your replies so can you reply whilst still sober, thank you.