My Canon PRO-10 on refill ink - and what happened to my PRO-9500II

Ink stained Fingers

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I must admit I really don't like OBA's in photo papers, they can create irritating color shifts since the normal observer is not aware of the detrimental effects they can cause under different light conditions, and I don't understand their wide popularity. You cannot use the same profile for viewing conditions with and w/o UV presence. ColorMunki is just trying to reach a compomise for the user, and the additional bad thing is that a buyer is not informed whether a photo paper contains OBA's or not, the products, the packages are not marked with something like 'contains OBA's', and the worse part is that OBA's, there are seveal different chemicals on the market, fade like poor dye inks - their effect may be gone after months. And there is even a longer term effect that the OBA's may cause yellowing of the inkjet coating of inkjet papers over the years. I did some testing of papers with and w/o OBA's as far as I could go with it, there are only a very few photo papers on the market like these

the HP Premium Plus Photo Paper Glossy CR 674A and a HP Advanced Photo Paper Glossy Q8698A
and have a look to some tests and how different papers look under a UV LED lamp
(What is the difference between these 2 HP papers - the gamut of the advanced photo paper is slightly smaller than the gamut of the Premium Plus photo paper , don't ask me why HP sells 2 such similar papers - I don't know)

www.printerknowledge.com/threads/how-does-the-choice-of-a-glossy-paper-influence-the-fading-of-dye-inks.12326/post-106466
(It is posting #3 in this thread, I did some other OBA fading tests somewhere else - e.g. here

www.printerknowledge.com/threads/optical-brighteners-and-their-fading.11650/#post-98226 )

Aardenburg Imaging is trying to get some measurements done on this long term effect but nobody seems to be interested really.
 
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palombian

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Yes :) The usual PBK is not so dark and it got lack of contrast
That was my first impression too, but strange enough it is much darker now (see my measures).
No mistake, I refilled a fresh (flushed) cart to be sure.
Less glossy than the other inks indeed.
It is - as warned for - not fully scratch resistant on glossy paper (included Aldi), but only by rough handling, no show stopper IMO.
PC PBK is barely better at this point, but has a very deep black and gloss.

The gloss of OEM PBK is between both and the right one - and this is needed for an equal gloss (on glossy papers).
CO is a Color Optimiser, not a varnish to cover all gloss differences.

On semi-gloss and in particular luster all inks perform well, no need to spend more.

PS:

For the same price/ml PC and Octoinkjet sell OEM ink you can buy PGI-29 cartridges for the PRO-1 (38ml), 24h delivery and less shipping, I wouldn't place an order only for this.
Based on @jtoolman 's Youtube channel, both printers share the same inkset (PGI-72G = PGI-29DGY).
Although he mentions in another video the CO is thicker.

PFI-1000 (80 ml) carts for the PRO-1000 are a bit cheaper/ml, but - according to @mikling - only the Red is the same as PRO-10.
 
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palombian

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Since I flushed the magenta cart everything is fine.
The OEM PBK Octoinkjet sells is amazing, my prints on glossy paper are same as OEM.

I use now 9 octo inks + Precision colors CO.
On satin and luster paper the octo standard PBK and CO are as good.
No need IMO to pay the expensive shipping from the States.
You don't need OEM red either, octo red has the same colour and gloss.

I am very satisfied with the PRO-10.
The gloss differences and bronzing of the PRO-9500 II are drastically reduced.
It seems to me the PRO-10 spills less ink for cleaning too, I barely had to add ink to the MBK I never use.
I also changed carts many times for testing (the original 9500 would have flushed all carts dry doing so, the stories told about Canon ink cleaning cycles - ever 60 hrs etc - go back to this printer and do not apply to the PRO-10 nor the 9500 II).

CO consumption is high as expected.
I did not have the possibility to test the Octoinkjet CO with the OEM PBK, but it should perform better since there are less gloss differences to cover.
On satin no problem at all.
 

Artur5

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My own findings with this printer are in some ways similar to yours but they differ in other aspects.

Octoink red is good but IMHO clearly a step below OEM. That can be seen at naked eye and also in the gamut of the profiles. Octoink “regular” PBK has adherence issues even with luster or semigloss media. It’s easily scratched with the fingernail. This problem is well known by Martin, who advices to buy OEM PBK in cases where the prints can be exposed to careless handling.
Octoinkjet magenta developed weird banding issues which wouldn’t go away with repeated cartridge flushings. Swapping to Prec. Colors Magenta fixed the issue at once.
CO consumption is not as high as yours because I’m printing quite often small photos in plain paper. The kind of stuff that I used to print with my regular Pixmas and I don’t do it with the Maxify because I find the resolution a bit coarse. So, in the end I’m consuming more MBK than PBK with the Pro10s.
All in all, I’m globally satisfied with my current set ( 8 Octoinks + P.C. Magenta + OEM red). The alluded adherence issue with PBK makes me consider purchasing OEM PBK once my current stock is exhausted.

I agree that purchasing from Europe all the inks to Precision Colors hardly justifies the extra expense for the little improvement achieved.
There’s also the possibility of swapping to Inktec if Brexit increases too much the final cost of Octoinkjet products.
 

palombian

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Thanks for testing the red, @Artur5 ;).

Based on my test patches (I do not have the background nor the tools to make exact measurements) Octoink red is indeed a bit more magenta. But a custom profile will add some more yellow so the strawberries on my test print are as red as with OEM.
In my experience Octo red and magenta should be used together for best colour results.
And yes a veeeerrrrryyyy long cartridge flush solves the "magenta problem" (thanks to @Borut, but this didn't retain him to jump ship :().

Interesting to know also the Octoink CO responds to your needs.
I admit I am a glossy freak and tested it in extreme conditions.
Probably the Precision Colors CO I use protects the (Octo standard PBK) ink more so adherence is less an issue.
OEM PBK solves this (as mentioned on Octinkjet's site) and you'll be surprised by the gain in overall gloss (PC PBK is second best).

Another strange thing I observed is that the result on paper (colour, D-max) depends heavily on the paper settings.
The same ink printed with Matte settings gives a completely different colour than with Platinum (much more than between OEM or 3th party).
This is not only due to the CO overlay.
The same ink in the PRO-9500 is also very different (ex: all my PBK's reach less than D=3 on the PRO-10, while the same inks in the 9500 do not come under D=8 ???).
The advances Canon claims are not only due to the inks, the printer driver plays some tricks I do not understand.
Kudos to the 3th party ink suppliers who figured all this out !

I will not forage into other ink territories at this moment, I do not expect much and the madness must stop (I have at least 3 and sometimes 5 different inks for each colour :mad:).
Plenty enough in quality (and volume) for my needs.

PS: I have no indication until now the internals and functioning of the PGI-72 cart are different from PGI-9.
 
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Ink stained Fingers

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the printer driver plays some tricks
you can assume that the driver uses some parameter settings for the actual ink density it puts on the paper - which vary by the driver settings - paper choice - quality settings. There are at least these parameters - how much ink can a particular paper type take - an ink limit, and which is the point at which a further increase of the ink density does not increase the black level/color saturation anymore. You come to a point that more ink reduces the color saturation - a reversal of the ink density vs. saturation curve.
The user does not have access to these parameters at all, and no chance to vary them, the only alternative would be RIP software bypassing the regular driver altogether. Particular profiling software let you do a linearization to identify those limits before you actually profile this ink/paper combination .
And I can confirm your tests about the effects of the CO, or gloss optimizer GO in Epson terms, it changes, improves the gloss of printed areas, and reduces differences between printed and unprinted areas, but not all 3rd party GO's create the same look, and it all depends on the paper/ink type/GO type combination.
And I have seen that the GO improves the black level and widens the gamut slightly in lots of cases.
That's all part of the game - or fun - when you start using 3rd party supplies - and try to find the best combination of them. There are some surprises along the road.
 

palombian

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Since I have bought some Precision Color inks I will use them first to clear inventory (and continue with Octoinkjet afterwards).
No critic, but IMO the shipping costs with myUS to Europe are better spent by replacing some (Octoinkjet) inks with OEM.
Priorities vary, mine is PBK in the first place, then R, nice to have M,Y and CO (but I have enough stock of PC CO and CO SE, I rate the first 85-90% of OEM).

My cocktail is now:
PM=octo
PC=octo
Y=PC SE
M=PC SE
R=OEM
PBK=OEM
C=PC SE
CO=PC
MBK=octo
GY=octo

Based on my custom profile (blue) it seems the best of all worlds.
Green is what I obtained with genuine OEM PGI-72 carts.
Yellow is with 8 octo inks + PC CO + OEM PBK.

Didn't have time yet, but probably the last one will be stronger in the red with OEM red.
@Artur5 is right, demanding reds are better with OEM.

I think my goal of 90% of OEM for 30% of the cost is in sight.
Prints are punchier and with much more equal gloss than with the 9500 (using an older generation of 3th party and OEM inks).
Cocktail_PRO10_50.jpg

Cocktail_PRO10_10.jpg

Cocktail_PRO10_80.jpg
 
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The Hat

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When mixing several suppliers inks in your different cartridges together, that can give you completely different results, because each inkset will favours a different colour and can change your whole colour spectrum, but I suppose having a ColorMunki helps get round that issue..:hu
 

palombian

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When mixing several suppliers inks in your different cartridges together, that can give you completely different results, because each inkset will favours a different colour and can change your whole colour spectrum, but I suppose having a ColorMunki helps get round that issue..:hu
I am aware of this, but compared with the inks for the 9500, the PRO-10 ones do not vary as much (since they claim to be close to OEM).
The problem is that I can't measure it in advance, the colour of the ink in the bottle or on the cartridge outlet is not always a good indication for what will be on the paper.
Profiling gives some clues, I try to compare the patches on the first page and see how changing one ink modifies the profile. Most variation seems to be in the magenta, red and (less) yellow.
The Colormunki is maybe not very exact, but I see no colour shifts between the test charts, I never could do this by eye.
 
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