German "Durchstich" refill method for the PGI-520/CLI-521 cartridges

equity44

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@paulcroft and @martinOreg

Thanks for your replies. My smaller refills following my June 16 posting did not present the problems that we have been discussing recently and the durchstich proceeded with no difficulty on the few selected cartridges that were in need of a refill. I think perhaps some of my cartridges that were presenting the spillage issue may be VERY old -- probably at the end of their useful life. I will comment further if the issue arises again.
 

thanhhuy123

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ThrillaMozilla said:
OK, I think I have it figured out, but I don't have time to describe it now. Basically, I think there's usually a slight vacuum in the reservoir, but there's more to it. It might be worth understanding this further.

Meanwhile, can anyone tell me if the extra large cartridges have the notch shown by the arrow, on the top side? (This one is not an extra large cartridge.) Unfortunately, all my HP564XL cartridges are in use, so I can't take one apart.
eee.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/7413_564-cart-open-toparrow.jpg

By the way, is this a commercial durchstich system?
eee.youtube.com/watch?v=oUz4va8WyLM
Hey, the image of HP 564 on this (eee.printerfillingstation.com/Refill-Instructions/HP/H44.htm) site does not have the notch! Look:

eee.printerfillingstation.com/Refill-Instructions/images/CartridgePics/564h.jpg
eee.printerfillingstation.com/Refill-Instructions/images/CartridgePics/564e.jpg

How can we know if our HP564 cartridge's wall has notch or not? (Beside crack up the cartridge, rendering it useless!)

Did anyone know how to, or succeed in making HP564 become HP564XL? Like on this (eee.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bkm5WeNif4) video. I haven't tried this yet.

P/S: I am new member, so can can't post any links! Sorry. Replace "eee" with "www".
 

PeterBJ

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Here is the picture:



It shows the standard version of the cartridge. The XL version of the cartridge has the same partition between the ink chamber and the sponge chamber, but oriented so the notch is at the bottom, allowing ink to flow from the ink chamber to the sponge chamber.

So the answer is the XL cartridges have the notch at the bottom and can be refilled using the German method and the traditional top fill method. The standard (non-XL) can only be refilled by adding ink to the ink outlet until the sponges are saturated.

Modifying a standard cartridge into an XL version, would be practically impossible, I think. If you drill an extra hole at the bottom of the partition to convert the cartridge into an XL version, the cartridge will leak, as air is drawn into the ink chamber from the vent through the notch. Either the Youtube video is fake or there exists more versions of the HP cartridges, or the cartridge is not an HP OEM.
 

thanhhuy123

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Maybe that's possible for the HP564 cartridge like in this image: eee.printerfillingstation.com/Refill-Instructions/images/CartridgePics/564h.jpg
because there's no notch at the wall.

So, basically the chamber must be air tight? Air is only allowed to enter the spoung part?
 

PeterBJ

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The picture you are linking to shows an XL cartridge, this can be seen as the ink chamber has contained ink. The XL cartridge also has a notch, but at the bottom of the chamber. For the cartridge to function properly, the ink chamber must be sealed airtight, and the only connection to the sponge chamber must be at the bottom of the ink chamber. The smallest air leak into the ink chamber will cause the cartridge to leak.

Turning the partition upside down, with the notch at the top in the standard cartridges effectively prevents hobbyists and others from using a drill to easily convert standard cartridges into XL cartridges. Actually a clever design detail by HP. So only XL cartridges are worth refilling.
 

thanhhuy123

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Yes, I agree. Simple but very effective design of HP!

I have a crazy idea:

Drill one high hole to glue the notch at the top.
Drill another lower hole to make the notch at the bottom.

Maybe I can try this once my cartridge is no longer refillable - just to test the leakage. If no leakage then likely it will succeed!

OR:

Just fill in the chamber, once the cartridge is out of ink, take it out, put our finger at the vent hole and make the cartridge top-side-down so the ink in chamber can travell through the north on top into the spoung! What do you think?
 

PeterBJ

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thanhhuy123 wrote:

Drill one high hole to glue the notch at the top.
Drill another lower hole to make the notch at the bottom.
It looks like the idea could work, but the cartridges are made from polypropylene, a plastic it is very difficult to get a reliable bond to. Some hot melt glues work, others don't. The slightest air leak into the ink chamber will cause the cartridge to leak.

Even if you manage to get a perfect seal, there is one more problem. At the bottom and around one centimetre up the partition has some grooves at the sponge side. They are vital in the exchange of ink and air, and regulation of ink pressure/flow. In a standard cartridge these grooves are not in the proper position, as the partition is turned upside down. So I don't recommend attempting the modification.

The HP 564 XL cartridges are very similar to some Canon cartridges, so check out this photo series by paulcroft and specially note the grooves seen in pictures #4,5,and 6. Link here: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6221&p=1

thanhhuy123 wrote:

Just fill in the chamber, once the cartridge is out of ink, take it out, put our finger at the vent hole and make the cartridge top-side-down so the ink in chamber can travell through the north on top into the spoung! What do you think?
If any ink is transferred from the ink chamber to the sponge chamber, it will be at the top of the sponges and in the vent area, where it certainly does not belong. And the ink transfer will not work when the cartridge is inserted in the printer in the normal position, so forget that idea.

If you want to know more about the workings of Canon and HP cartridges you should read the whole of this thread about the German refill,: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4315 or perhaps you could also start around post #200 and read on. Especially note ThrillaMozilla's posts about the HP 564 cartridges.
 

ThrillaMozilla

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I have some more information on this method, especially as it refers to HP cartridges, here:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=40658#p40658 .
There are some radiographs showing the structure of the cartridges in this thread: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7486&p=1 . Be sure to scroll to the second page.

The opening between the chambers seems to be rather touchy in its construction, because it has to pass air in one direction and ink in the other direction, through a small hole. I have some older HP cartridges that sometimes fail to do this, and I have to take them out and give them a good rap. Mikling posted a great series of photos showing ink flow in a partly dissected cartridge. He pointed out that in a later design, Canon added an additional groove to the bottom of the cartridge to solve just the problem I observed. I don't know whether HP XL cartridges now have that groove, but I suspect they do.

You can try to modify non-XL cartridges, but I don't think there's a guarantee of easy success. I'm not sure it's worth trying.
 

koray

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What's the advantage of this refill method? Does't ink leak from the refill hole when the cartridge put?
 

PeterBJ

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No, a properly refilled cartridge will not leak through the refill hole. See the first post of this thread. Removing the orange bottom clip from a cartridge and so opening a much larger hole doesn't cause leaking either.

An advantage of this refill method is that you need not remove the sealing ball from the cartridge or drill the top of it to refill, so you will have no sealing problems. A cartridge that doesn't have its ink reservoir sealed 100% after refill will leak.
 
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