Epson ET-8550 Velvet Fine Art Paper settings uses Pigment and Dye Black

[thebestcpu]

I mean this speaks to the printer controlling the ink delivery drivers, and ICC profiles needing to work around that.
When using other papers and other printer profiles, you need to select the paper type which mirrors the name of epson's OEM papers, i.e. Epson VFA or Epson Ultra Premium Glossy. I don't think it's "not as intended", unless you want to suggest using these printers with any paper otherthan epson's specific papers for which there exists a paper type is "not as intended" and/or a hack... Which would be absurd of course.

Yes, that would be absurd, and I did not use the words you quoted: "not as intended" and instead suggested that full characterization is needed and YMMV. Case in point, Keith found that using ABW in the FVA mode was worse (blocked up shadows and worse Dmax), and Jose saw that for his color images, he saw positive improvements

Keith did and always does excellent work, and clearly went way beyond creating a new ICC profile and measuring Dmax, along with providing appropriate caveats and cautions when characterizing papers for specific printer/inks/media modes.

Really it would be nice if ICC profiles had more control over the printer drivers, but that could also introduce a whole other can of worms: standardization, settings, etc. Nor would the printer manufacturers necessarily be enthusiastic about giving up this level of abstraction and control, and nor necessarily would it benefit the average joe who walks into best buy, picks one of these up, and just wants prints as fast as possible.

I have no illusions about companies giving up on those abstractions and understand why. Marketing and sales want to make the biggest and best impressions to compete and make sales. If you have ever seen my other posts, I believe in testing to strip the marketing words out and find out what is really going on.

If you look at Jose's video: to his eye the results are improved. Possibly new ICC profiles could be made exploiting the VFA paper type to take advantage of the pigment and dye ink usage.

I agree, and if I rained on anyone's parade, I apologize. I think I focused too much on Keith and Jose using the words almost imperceptible" improvements when I was hoping for a "breakthrough."

Do you use OEM ICC profiles? I found the QIMage ICC profiles for OEM papers (and OEM inks obviously) produce significantly better results than the OEM ICC profiles. I also checked the OEM ICC profiles in colorsync on my computer, and found them to be completely identical, so there's obvious room for improvement there.

Yes, I do use OEM paper, ink, and profiles. Thanks for your tip.

 

[Epatcola]

I am not quite sure how Keith Cooper determined that both the dye black and pigment black inks were used in the VFA media setting, but while curious, this is somewhat immaterial

I already posted that black dye turns reddish brown under low color temperature lighting. The effect is very obvious in spectrophotometer readings from a black patch. That is how he knows VFA mode is substituting some pigment black for dye and having black and white prints not look brown and white in some lighting conditions is the main reason for wanting to use VFA mode.

For the best quality B&W matt prints it is worth finding paper that works well in VFA mode.

 

[thebestcpu]

I already posted that black dye turns reddish brown under low color temperature lighting. The effect is very obvious in spectrophotometer readings from a black patch. That is how he knows VFA mode is substituting some pigment black for dye and having black and white prints not look brown and white in some lighting conditions is the main reason for wanting to use VFA mode.

For the best quality B&W matt prints it is worth finding paper that works well in VFA mode.

Thank you @Epatcola
That’s good to know.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I'm a kind of irritated to understand what is so special with this Epson Velvet Fine Art paper and why it gets that much attention. Epson is offering this paper just in A3+ and A2, 20 A3+ sheets at 92€ which is pretty much at the upper end of the pricing range. Epson is specifying the paper as a cotton paper with a special coating, but does not mention anywhere that it rather should be printed with dye inks or better with pigment inks or a combination of both , a list of compatible printers is long and covers all photo printers of the last 10 + years like the R2100 .

When I look to other paper suppliers they offer as well cotton based papers - photo rag - cotton rag etc. Hahnemühle offers even a range of photo rag papers , as well in A4 format, as listed at the left bottom corner of the test package contents:



And there are cotton rag papers offered as well by other manufacturers. If you go and use such paper a prior check of the properties is absolutely necessary - gamut and profile - blackpoint - look and touch - scratch resistance

 

[thebestcpu]

Hi @Ink stained Fingers Good questions. I had not noticed much attention paid to the VFA paper. I'm not an expert yet when comparing three sample sets, which included Epson and Hahnemühle sample packs. I had five test images for all the papers and had a set of non-expert people judge them all on various criteria. While the results varied quite a bit, the VFA was not picked as a top pick in any category by any non-expert judge. I thought it had a unique look and feel, and I would consider it for certain prints, yet it's not a go-to FA paper for me.

Here is what Epson Marketing posts about it:

And here is a search of the prices of a variety of papers. I am sure the prices vary quite a bit, yet these prices were for a small number pack for 8.5x11 size. VFA seemed to be high yet in the pack for what I found on her a per page basis.
All just FYI

 

[Epatcola]

I'm a kind of irritated to understand what is so special with this Epson Velvet Fine Art paper and why it gets that much attention.

I don't think it is so special or gets much attention. Just the mode for it on the ET-8550 is interesting.

Keith Cooper hasn't tried it (judging by it not being in the list of the many profiles he has created for the ET-8550).

He has a profile for it on a P5300 so it looks like he has/had some.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I did a test with a matte paper on the ET-8550, I created icc-profiles for various different driver settings; I used a matte paper Brilliant 230gr, I cannot affort to buy a complete A3+ Epson pack of the Velvet Fine Art , a sample pack/sheet is nowhere available. The coating has the most impact anyway.
I'm using these paper/quality settings, all on the same Brilliant matte paper

https://www.brilliantpaper.eu/en/co...blatt-matte-doppelseitige-beschichtung-230g-m

Normal paper best
Epson quality inkjet std (standard)
Epson matte std
Epson Velvet Fine Art
Epson Ultra Glossy std

The 5 gamuts of these driver setting variations look like this plot, all gamuts look very similar, and the overall gamut volume just varies by 2%, there are no significant differences at all.



This similarity reaches down to a rel dark level of L*=20



Differences become visible at the dark level with these different driver settings

The dark level of the driver settings 'normal paper/best' and the 'Epson Velvet' deliver a value of L*=17.5 whereas all other driver settings deliver a dark level of L*=11.7. This is the impact of the matte or glossy black ink selection by the driver - the glossy black ink delivers a visibly better/darker black than the matte black - 11.7 vs. 17.5. And it is clear that a blacklevel of 17.5 let more dark gray areas drain in the dark - less details visible. A close-up of the dark profile bottom spike clearly shows this - an overlay of two gamuts - with the glossy black and matte black ink.



The green gamut spike reaches further down to L=11 .
These differences are not explained anywhere by Epson, the ET-8550 runs with dye inks + a pigment black for crisp prints on normal paper , but why would a velvet fine art paper benefit from the pigment black - I'm not clear about it.

 

[Epatcola]

but why would a velvet fine art paper benefit from the pigment black - I'm not clear about it.

Go here and search for "Why the media setting can make such a huge difference to some prints". Look at the two screen shots and accompanying text.

Below that he compares two papers one that works well in VFA mode and one that doesn't.

 

[thebestcpu]

Go here and search for "Why the media setting can make such a huge difference to some prints". Look at the two screen shots and accompanying text.

Below that he compares two papers one that works well in VFA mode and one that doesn't.

Thank you for the pointer to the specific information on why Keith believes both blacks are being used.
I noted Keith's statement:

"I suspect it also uses the dye black to some extent, but this is far from certain."

So, even though Keith was unsure about this, I can understand why all the information he gathered points to that.
If true, I suspect that it is worth checking other printers, such as my Epson P900, as well.

John Wheeler

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I won't get a VFA sample sheet for a test but I have a sample pack on order with various Hahnemühle cotton type papers on order and will do what we recommendet above - testing with different driver settings.

https://www.fine-art-papiere.de/hahnemuehle-matt-fine-art-smooth-testpackung-din-a4.html