1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Picture Of The Week (POW) Information and Submissions
    CLICK HERE!
    (if you are logged in, this notice can be dismissed using the "x" to the top right of the notice)

    Dismiss Notice
  3. Official PK Poll: Is there any future in refilling?
    CLICK HERE!
    (if you are logged in, this notice can be dismissed using the "x" to the top right of the notice)

    Dismiss Notice
  4. PK Featured Thread: Impressive pictures from one of our new members. Here hoping for more ;)
    CLICK HERE!
    (if you are logged in, this notice can be dismissed using the "x" to the top right of the notice)

    Dismiss Notice

Gloss optimizer and fading of dye inks

Discussion in 'Epson InkJet Printers' started by Ink stained Fingers, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Nov 26, 2017
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    16 weeks have passed, and the pigment inks are fading slowly - very slowly, currently outside in a
    pretty cold and moist environment, so it's mostly a gaseous agent - ozone - causing the effect, barely any UV radiation. A gloss/chroma optimizer overprint - complete - does indeed has a
    significant effect - I'm listing here the luminance changes vs. a ref print kept in the dark and pretty much shielded off.

    Epson compatible pigment ink with and w/o GO

    with GO____after 8 weeks______12 weeks __16 weeks

    C___________________1____________1________1
    M___________________0____________0________0
    Y___________________0____________0________0
    K___________________0____________1________2

    Sum_________________1____________2________3

    w/o GO

    C___________________1____________3________4
    M___________________2____________2________6
    Y___________________1____________2________3
    K___________________1____________1________2

    Sum_________________5____________8_______15
     
  2. Dec 3, 2017
    jtoolman

    jtoolman Printer Master Platinum Printer Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,947
    Likes Received:
    933
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Location:
    United States
    Printer Model:
    All of them! LOL
    If you apply GO with a spare printer like an old EPSON 1400 and use QuadTone RIP using a custom curve I can apply a coat of GO that looks completely wet or one that is barely noticeable. The Custom Application QTR Curves control the amount.
    Joe
     
  3. Dec 3, 2017
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    I did a quick test of the ink coverage on the paper, with black ink instead of GO, black ink in the black channel, with matte paper quality strong, and I get this under the microscope
    Black.jpg

    and I turned up the gamma pretty much to separate the actual black dots and the dot gain/ink spread around it, and there are some sparse small white spots with no ink coverage at all, looking to the histogram I get a number that these light areas don't cover more than 0.5% of the image.
    A 2nd overprint would cover those but I wouldn't expect too much additional gain from it, the paper surface is essentially covered with a GO layer already.
     
  4. Dec 9, 2017
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    The pigment inks with a GO overprint are doing better than without GO with their fading performance, that's the numbers now after 18 weeks

    Epson compatible pigment ink with and w/o GO

    with GO____after 8 weeks______12 weeks __16 weeks__18 weeks

    C___________________1____________1________1___________2
    M___________________0____________0________0___________0
    Y___________________0____________0________0___________0
    K___________________0____________1________2___________1

    Sum_________________1____________2________3___________3

    w/o GO

    C___________________1____________3________4___________5
    M___________________2____________2________6___________5
    Y___________________1____________2________3___________9
    K___________________1____________1________2___________2

    Sum_________________5____________8_______15__________21


    The deltas are increasing, the yellow now seems to become the weakest ink , similar
    to Aardenburg's findings about weak yellow pigment inks across the range of tested inks.
    Epson calls it 'Gloss Optimizer' and Canon 'Chroma Optimizer', both effects of this 'ink' are visible and measurable. But no company is referring to an additional benefit of a better fading performance as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
    The Hat likes this.
  5. Dec 18, 2017
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    Based on @jtoolman 's comments above I tested the GO overprint, I checked the 'ink' - GO coverage on the paper which appears to be pretty complete by printing via the black ink channel. And I'm testing the fading protection one or two layers of GO may give and whether that would make a difference.

    GO.jpg
    That's the test patches
    left - w/o GO overprint
    middle - with 1x GO
    right - 2x GO, the 2nd layer printed some hours after the first one

    Apparent are reflection differences , there are no visible changes in colors when viewed directly , and the gamut between these print does not change, the spectro is operating with a viewing angle of 0 deg. The changes appear when turning the print against reflecting light, the print with 1x GO looks like viewed through a glass screen, and the print with 2x GO looks almost like the one w/o GO at all , the 2nd overprint takes that glassy look away again. Please consider all this experimental at this time, it might be interesting to do some more testing but I'm not recommending it at this time for general use.

    And how about the fading - the black patch of the left section happily turned brown after 2 weeks - it's the L300 ink - and there is no change yet measurable under the 1x or 2x GO overprints , the GO overprint(s) do a pretty good fade protection against
    the current pre-winterly weather conditions
     
    The Hat likes this.
  6. Jan 1, 2018
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    it's typically pretty difficult to make a forecast for the year starting today, but I just expect with rather high confidence that dye inks continue fading - everything else would be a pretty big surprise.....
    So I looked again to the patches now after 4 weeks with and w/o GO overprint - black starts turning into a chocolate brown unprotected - the protected patches don't show a relevant shift yet - regardless of 1x or 2x overprint, so it needs some more ozone whatever to show possible differences.
    The visible differences of the gloss appearance remain for the 1x and 2x patches
     
    The Hat and palombian like this.
  7. Jan 15, 2018
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    It's the same situation after 6 weeks - the patches w/o GO overprint are fading along - as expected, the patches with 1x or 2x GO don't show signs of fading yet.
    I had a look to some other aspects of the GO application, as mentioned before, it makes visually perceptible differences - and these are different with 1x or 2x overprints.
    Epson and Canon are advertising this clear ink as a gloss or chroma optimizer in context with pigment ink prints. There is another effect that the GO overprint can improve the fading of dye ink prints very much, and the GO has impact onto the overall gamut of a print.
    That's the gamut at L=50 of a typical pigment ink print
    Pig-GO 50.jpg
    with the red line - no GO _ green line 1x GO _ blue line 2x GO, the GO overprint increases the gamut somewhat
    This is the situation at L=15 , at the darker colors
    Pig-GO 15.jpg
    The gamut gets wider with a GO overprint - 1x or 2x, and there is another benefit that the
    black level drops to
    no GO - L=12 1x GO - L=10, 2x GO - L=8 wo that's quite some gains, the improved black level and wider gamut for darker colors becomes visible test prints in direct comparison. And there is a visual difference as well - 1xGO takes away the bronzing of pigment inks, improves the blacks and balances gloss differences between areas with different ink densities to a degree. 1xGO in unprinted areas e.g. edges around the print or or white areas in the print changes the look of the paper white. Prints with 2xGO overall look slightly better to those with 1xGO, the glassy look of the paper white is gone, there is not much further visible difference between 1xGO and 2xGO prints, the differences in gamut are only visible in direct comparison.
    How does that all look with dye prints with 1x or 2x GO:
    Dye-GO 50.jpg
    red - no GO _ green 1x GO _ blue 2 x GO, the gamuts with GO at L=50 are slightly smaller than w/o GO, opposite to pigment ink prints
    Dye-GO 15.jpg
    The GO is narrowing the gamuts at darker colors, and is affecting the black levels as well
    no GO - 5 _ 1 x GO - 7 _ 2 x GO - 8 - the black level is weakening, effects all opposite to those above with pigment inks.
    And how does it look - the 1xGO is changing the look of the paper white (glossy) , and prints look as if they are behind glass, color changes are not visible, this glassy look is gone with 2x GO , such prints look somehow better than those with 1xGO (just my personal preference). The GO benefit on dye inks is not so much in the gloss appearance, bronzing etc, the only benefit would be a significant protection against ozone of weaker dye ink prints as shown in the other thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
    The Hat and stratman like this.
  8. Jan 21, 2018
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    It's now 24 weeks that I keep a patch outside for a fading test - with Epson compatible pigment inks and with a G/ overprint

    Epson compatible pigment ink with and w/o GO

    with GO____after 8 weeks______12 weeks __16 weeks__18 weeks___24 weeks

    C___________________1____________1________1___________2_________2
    M___________________0____________0________0___________0_________0
    Y___________________0____________0________0___________0_________0
    K___________________0____________1________2___________1_________2

    Sum_________________1____________2________3___________3_________4

    w/o GO

    C___________________1____________3________4___________5_________6
    M___________________2____________2________6___________5_________5
    Y___________________1____________2________3___________9________10
    K___________________1____________1________2___________2_________3

    Sum_________________5____________8_______15__________21________24


    It is apparent that the gloss optimizer overprint provides a significant fading
    protection, as well for pigment inks, protection against the typical ozone etc
    gaseous agents, there is not much sun/UV radiation outside . And these numbers
    show the same effect as reported in various tests by Aardenburg that yellow pigments
    are pretty weak overall. Epson had promised to have that fixed and improved with
    the latest Ultrachrome pigment inks for the P600/800 and alike printers.
    It is unkown at this time whether newer 3rd party inks compatible with these printers,
    by farbenwerk, Lyson, PC, Vermont Ink or else provide this improvement of the yellow pigment inks as well.

    The trend and positive effect of a GO overprint is clearly visible, I'm closing this test
    now after 24 weeks.
     
  9. Jan 21, 2018
    Flying Scotsman

    Flying Scotsman Printing Ninja

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    scotland
    Printer Model:
    canon ip8750
    I would like to thank you once again for all the time and work you put into these tests. They are invaluable for us who are refilling and wanting the best possible quality.

    Thanks again and keep up the good work
     
    The Hat likes this.
  10. Jan 22, 2018
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Germany
    Printer Model:
    L310/382/1800, P400, Pro7600
    Differences - specifically in the performance of yellow pigment inks - between the previous and the current version
    of Ultrachrome HD pigment inks are presented here by Aardenburg:

    http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/optical-brighteners-obas/
    I have so far not seen any comments in this respect by 3rd party ink suppliers whether their Ultrachrome HD compatible inks offer a similar improvement of the yellow pigment inks. Several of those have already advertised that they did improve or exceed the black level of their inks vs. the Epson HD inks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018

Share This Page