German "Durchstich" refill method for the PGI-520/CLI-521 cartridges

[Dumbledore]

Hey there... refilled about a week ago for the first time using this method. Had a little bit of trouble getting to the ink container on the first try, but beside this all went very good. I must say that this method is trouble-less, even for a newbie like me. I think and hope i'll do a lot more refills using this method)

 

[l_d_allan]

Thanks. VERY HELPFUL to clear up some fuzziness on my part about this method.

I live in Colorado Springs, CO, which is the location for R-Jet Tek. I purchased a refill kit oriented to individuals from them, which comes with several syringes and a single 1.5" needle. I'm wondering if the 1.5" needle is going to be long enough to reach the reservoir of CLI-8 cartridges.

Here is a link to their supply webpage:
(with placeholders ... sorry ... as newbies can't enter links as spam protection):
rjettek dot com slash catalog slash index dot php slash cPath slash 58_63

They carry several lengths in gauges ranging from 16 ga to 22 ga. For die-ink for a PIXMA 9000-2, what would be the preferred gauge. It seems like thinner would be better so the entry hole can be smaller, but perhaps this isn't all that important.

Also, one of the 1.5" needles they sell is described as "blunt 18 gauge". My impression is that this would probably be too short for the "German Refill Method", but I thought I'd check if it is ok or not ok to dull the syringe needles as a safefy issue.

 

[RMM]

Blunt needles work fine but you do need a 2" length needle.

And I've never used OCP inks but from all reports they are a great choice especially if you want to buy in bulk.

 

[irvweiner]

ldallan: Here are the exit port caps that I use on my CLI8 cats, work very well. Check their #1916 plug for the refill port. Thr exit port caps let you store the carts side by side.
http://www.rjettek.com/catalog/product_ cts_id/469

Instead of the syringes you might prefer squeeze bottles with needles. In the US, Howard Electronics: http://howardelectronics.com/

In the UK, http://www.octoink.co.uk/ the owner is a constant contributor to this site.

Having started with top filling in the last century, I have stayed with it with no ill effects! I'm careful not to overfill and i use a plastic check valve between the blunt needle and the bottle. No drips or suck back of ink when I finish filling.

this works for me YMMV irv weiner

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

...which comes with several syringes and a single 1.5" needle. I'm wondering if the 1.5" needle is going to be long enough to reach the reservoir of CLI-8 cartridges.

Guys, is there any reason he couldn't go in diagonally from the side, under the sponge BETWEEN the dividing wall and the filter? If the sponge really does its thing, this should prevent leaking (hopefully). Then he wouldn't need the 2" needle.

 

[ThrillaMozilla]

Here's a summary of what I think is going on. Much of this, but perhaps not all, is obvious or repeats what has already been written, but it's useful for me, at least. In the last section I speculate a bit on filling methods. Thanks to ghwellsjr for helpful comments on this post.

There are some pictures of disassembled cartridges here:
http://freedomtoprint.com/2010/06/25/review-hp-564-564xl-ink-cartridge-cracked-open-chips/
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6221
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/6881_cli8c-foam.jpg
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/6881_grooves_non_oem.jpg
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=770 , post 72 .

Static Pressures Within the Cartridge
Consider a cartridge with the ink chamber filled, but no sponge in the sponge chamber. The ink chamber is closed, except for a small opening at the bottom, between the chambers. The sponge chamber has a vent at the top, so it is open to the atmosphere. The level of ink in the sponge chamber will be at or above the top of the opening between chambers. If ink is removed from the sponge chamber, the level will drop until it reaches the same level as the opening. Then, as more ink is removed, ink will run between the chambers to keep the ink at the same level, and air will flow into the ink chamber to replace the ink that was removed. Generally, ink would run or seep out of any hole below the ink level, unless it's prevented by a sponge or other barrier.

Sponges
If a sponge is now placed in the sponge chamber, it will soak up ink. The sponge may contain some air, especially toward the top, and the proportion of ink in the sponge will usually be greater toward the bottom. Can the sponge prevent leaking from the cartridge, below the ink level? Generally, yes. Each pore of the sponge has a meniscus, with an associated surface tension. Because of gravity, the pressure is higher at the lowest point than at the ink level. Nevertheless, the higher pressure should not be sufficient to overcome surface tension unless the sponge is sufficiently oversaturated. However, if the sponge is pulled away and is not in contact with the opening, ink could drip.

There are one or two kinds of sponge, plus the hard filter at the bottom. The upper sponge is relatively coarse. It drains and fills easily, and can pass air easily. It may hold more ink than the bottom sponge. The lower sponge is finer, with smaller pores, so surface tension is higher and it holds ink more tightly. Nevertheless, the upper sponge is still sufficiently tight to prevent leakage from the vent during transport or storage, unless it is overfilled.

Air passages
There are some spaces within the cartridge. Some (especially Canon) sponges have an air space at the top, near the vent, with spacers to hold the sponges down. Oddly, the space is much larger than would be necessary to allow air to pass. In HP564 cartridges the sponge is in direct contact with the vent, as shown in the picture below (green arrow). (In the picture the exposed vent has been covered again with Scotch magic tape.) Both Canon and HP cartridges have one or two wide grooves, extending from the air vent down the side to the bottom. (EDIT: In Canon cartridges the groove extends from the bottom almost to the top of the upper sponge.) This ensures atmospheric pressure all the way to the bottom. In Canon cartridges (I don't know whether HP has these) there are recessed grooves in the wall that separates the chambers. The grooves extend from the bottom to a level just below the top of the lower sponge. These presumably allow air to pass from the vent into the reservoir. Although the air passes through the upper sponge and part of the lower sponge, it can bypass the most saturated lower part of the lower sponge.
(Click to enlarge)

I don't think pressures in the cartridge are especially critical. The cartridges can be stored in any position without leaking (vent up, vent down, on end, etc.), and they are supposed to work immediately regardless of storage position.

Filling
Filling the reservoir, either from the top or by the durchstich method, seems like an excellent way of ensuring that the cartridge is full but not overfilled. Thanks, you guys have convinced me. Many of the HP cartridges are opaque, so the liquid level cannot be seen while filling. However, since you know the length of the needle and therefore the position of the tip, the level can be determined by drawing back on the syringe plunger. If liquid returns, the tip is below the ink level. You can use this to adjust the ink level without being able to see it.

Ghwellsjr points out a disadvantage of the topfill method. If the reservoir is filled from the top, it can be tricky to simultaneously fill the cartridge completely and saturate the sponge correctly. If ink is simply allowed to run into the sponge chamber with the fill hole open, the sponge could easily be oversaturated, since the ink chamber is vented through the fill hole. Fortunately, there's an easy way to avoid this problem. To prevent oversaturation, the cartridge should be filled with the sponge chamber held above the ink chamber. Then seal the fill hole temporarily and tip the cartridge into the normal position. The ink chamber will empty partly and the sponge should be correctly saturated. If a complete fill is desired, tip the cartridge again (or seal the sponge chamber temporarily) and top it up. In the durchstich method, the sponge can be saturated and the ink chamber can be topped up without sealing or unsealing the fill hole.

EDIT: Mikling has a slightly differ method, which may be a little easier (message 4, here: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6264 ). I have discussed it and suggested a revision in that thread.

Small HP (non-XL) cartridges can be filled on the sponge side, either by injecting into the sponge from the top or by using a fixture on the outlet port. The latter is especially convenient for the small cartridges. Either way it may be difficult to fill with the proper amount. Probably the best way to determine the fill level is by weighing the new cartridge (alas, too late for me). The usual method is to inject a preset amount of ink and hope it's the correct amount. It may be necessary to let the cartridge drip for some time afterwards to correct the fill level. Some directions say to drip ink onto the filter until it stops absorbing ink. Ghwellsjr points out that it is possible to oversaturate cartridges and blow ink out the vent in this way. (I suspect that Canon cartridges would be more susceptible to this because the air space above the sponges can fill.)

Forcing ink into the outlet is easy, but it may be difficult to determine the proper fill level. Also, if the cartridge is filled too fast, ink may run up the groove on the side of the wall and out the vent. It may be possible to prevent this by blocking the vent with a piece of tape while filling, but if it does happen, you can clean the vent.

For brave experimentalists, it's harder but theoretically not impossible to fill the ink reservoir from the ink outlet. I saw a video of this somewhere, but I can't find it again. In the video, the cartridge was held with the sponge side up, ink was injected, and the plunger was repeatedly drawn back to remove air. Drawing back the plunger removes air from both chambers, and pushing the plunger injects ink. I would think there are many possible ways to do this. For example, one could start by blocking the vent (to minimize saturation of the sponges). To avoid oversaturating the sponge, if in doubt, one could either suck or blow excess ink out of the sponge, as the last step. (Caveat: I have NOT tried this. The obvious problem is that it may be quite difficult to properly saturate the sponge. This is beginning to sound like a bad idea.)

EDIT: This last paragraph refers to what later became known as the Freedom method, named and first developed by GHWellsJr from this forum, and further developed by other people in various forms. There's one thing in particular to remember: DO NO PUSH on the plunger. The plunger must be drawn back by vacuum. There's much more information on this subject in this definitive thread: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6750&p=1 . My current recommendations for using this method are here: http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=61518#p61518 .

 

[Parhs]

I got my new MX870 printer today and its cartridges are like that....opaque!

 

[jimbo123]

you might be OK. i thought the same thing when i opened up an MX860. the PGI220 looked much like in your pic, quite opaque. i was planning to give this MX860 to a friend along with some squeeze bottles of ink so they could easily refill using the german method. to help my buddy out, i was planning on drilling the new ink carts so all he'd have to do was refill.

once drilled, i needed to test the "opaqueness" of the PGI220. so i did a "reverse german method" and withdrew 5mls of ink from the ink compartment.

was relieved to see the ink level drop and that the ink cart was not opaque it was just filled with black pigmented ink. so i pushed the ink back in and was good to go.

J

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Printers: Canon MP830, IP4500, MX700, MX860, MP980
Method: German Durchstich Method
Ink: Hobbicolors ink, PMT-BK, UW8
Misc: Squeeze bottles - so much easier than syringes

 

[ghwellsjr]

...which comes with several syringes and a single 1.5" needle. I'm wondering if the 1.5" needle is going to be long enough to reach the reservoir of CLI-8 cartridges.

Guys, is there any reason he couldn't go in diagonally from the side, under the sponge BETWEEN the dividing wall and the filter? If the sponge really does its thing, this should prevent leaking (hopefully). Then he wouldn't need the 2" needle.

Yes, there is a reason: it will be very difficult to put a hole in the side at a steep enough angle to allow the needle to find its way to the hole in the bottom of the dividing wall. It's sometimes a challenge even with a two-inch needle going in straight from the far end of the cartridge. Two-inch needles are not that hard to find.

 

[ghwellsjr]

Some comments on your excellent and informative post:

Here's a summary of what I think is going on. Much of this, but perhaps not all, is obvious or repeats what has already been written, but it's useful for me, at least. In the last section I speculate a bit on filling methods. Please forgive me for the length of this post. (Caveat: I personally have tried almost none of this.) There are some pictures of disassembled cartridges here:
http://freedomtoprint.com/2010/06/25/review-hp-564-564xl-ink-cartridge-cracked-open-chips/

I'm amazed that HP would deliberately take an excellent existing design and disable it so that they can sell two versions, one half-full. It looks to me like they created the half-full version by inserting the dividing wall upside down so that the hole that is normally at the bottom is at the top. I wonder if the groves in the wall are also at the top. I'll bet they are. What a shame.

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6221
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/6881_cli8c-foam.jpg
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/6881_grooves_non_oem.jpg .

Static Pressures Within the Cartridge
Consider a cartridge with the ink chamber filled, but no sponge in the sponge chamber. The ink chamber is closed, except for a small opening at the bottom, between the chambers. The sponge chamber has a vent at the top, so it is open to the atmosphere. The level of ink in the sponge chamber will be at or above the top of the opening between chambers. If ink is removed from the sponge chamber, the level will drop until it reaches the same level as the opening. Then, as more ink is removed, ink will run between the chambers to keep the ink at the same level, and air will flow into the ink chamber to replace the ink that was removed. Generally, ink would run or seep out of any hole below the ink level, unless it's prevented by a sponge or other barrier.

Sponges
If a sponge is now placed in the sponge chamber, it will soak up ink. The sponge may contain some air, especially toward the top, and the proportion of ink in the sponge will usually be greater toward the bottom. Can the sponge prevent leaking from the cartridge, below the ink level? Generally, yes. Each pore of the sponge has a meniscus, with an associated surface tension. Because of gravity, the pressure is higher at the lowest point than at the ink level. Nevertheless, the higher pressure should not be sufficient to overcome surface tension unless the sponge is sufficiently oversaturated. However, if the sponge is pulled away and is not in contact with the opening, ink could drip.

There are one or two kinds of sponge, plus the hard filter at the bottom. The upper sponge is relatively coarse. It drains and fills easily, and can pass air easily. It may hold more ink than the bottom sponge. The lower sponge is finer, with smaller pores, so surface tension is higher and it holds ink more tightly. Nevertheless, the upper sponge is still sufficiently tight to prevent leakage from the vent during transport or storage.

Air passages
There are some spaces within the cartridge. Some (Canon?) sponges have an air space at the top, near the vent, with spacers to hold the sponges down. Oddly, the space is much larger than would be necessary to allow air to pass. In HP564 cartridges the sponge is in direct contact with the vent, as shown in the picture below (green arrow). (The exposed vent has been covered again with Scotch magic tape.) Both Canon and HP cartridges have one or two wide grooves, extending from the air vent down the side to the bottom. This ensures atmospheric pressure all the way to the bottom.

I have never observed any grooves in a Canon cartridge that go all the way from top to bottom. Could you point out where you see these in one of the pictures?

In some cartridges (Canon?--not know whether HP has these) there are recessed grooves in the wall that separates the chambers. The grooves extend to a level just below the top of the sponge. These presumably allow air to pass from the vent into the reservoir. Although the air passes through the upper sponge and part of the lower sponge, it can bypass the most saturated lower part of the lower sponge..

This is misleading. The recessed grooves only go half way up the dividing wall in a Canon cartridge. So it ends just below the top of the lower sponge. This isn't clear in your description.

[url]http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/thumbs/7413_inkcartridgeventarrow.jpg[/url] (Click to enlarge)

I don't think pressures in the cartridge are especially critical. The cartridges can be stored in any position without leaking (vent up, vent down, on end, etc.), and they are supposed to work immediately regardless of storage position.

Filling
Filling the reservoir, either from the top or by the durchstich method, seems like an excellent way of ensuring that the cartridge is full but not overfilled. Thanks, you guys have convinced me. Many of the HP cartridges are opaque, so the liquid level cannot be seen while filling. However, since you know the length of the needle, the level can be determined by drawing back on the syringe.

You can easily overfill the sponges when top filling. It generally won't happen with the German (or as you say it, durchstich) method. Also, I don't understand how you can determine how much ink is in a cartridge by drawing back on the syringe.

Cartridges can be filled on the sponge side, either from the top or the outlet port. By either method it may be difficult to fill with the proper amount. Probably the best way determine the fill level is by weighing the new cartridge (alas, too late for me). Filling by dripping ink onto the filter is probably all right, since ink will probably stop flowing when the sponges are saturated.

Forcing ink into the outlet is easy, but it may be difficult to determine the proper fill level. Also, if the cartridge is filled too fast, ink may run up the groove on the side of the wall and out the vent. It should be possible to prevent this by blocking the vent with a piece of tape while filling, and if it does happen, you can clean the vent.

I presume you are talking here about refilling one of those HP cartridges that is disabled by virtue of the dividing wall being inserted up-side-down, correct? How would you refill from the top? It is quite easy to refill just the sponge side of a Canon (or HP) cartridge by dripping ink onto the outlet port (with the cartridge up-side-down of course) but it will not stop when the sponges are saturated--it will merely fill up the air gap in a Canon cartridge and eventually come out the air vent. I presume the same thing will happen for an HP cartridge.

It's harder but not impossible to fill the ink reservoir from the ink outlet. I saw a video of this somewhere, but I can't find it again. In the video, the cartridge was held with the sponge side up, ink was injected, and the syringe was repeatedly drawn back to remove air. I would think there are many possible ways to do this. For example, one could start by blocking the vent (to minimize saturation of the sponges). To avoid oversaturating the sponge, if in doubt, one could either suck or blow excess ink out of the sponge, as the last step. (Caveat I have NOT tried this.)

I would say it is nearly impossible to fill the reservoir from the outlet port, unless, of course, you introduce a hole in the reservoir or a needle in the reservoir. Other than that, the only way I know to get ink into the reservoir is by repeatedly squeezing the sides of the reservoir while holding the sponge end of the cartridge up, but this is a very long process.