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Dye or Pigment Ink for 3880 Question

Discussion in 'Non OEM Ink & Cartridge Suppliers' started by dan1942, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. Aug 14, 2015
    W. Fisher

    W. Fisher Printing Ninja

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    New guy here, but I thought this interesting as I mix my dye inks for a 3880 for metal surface papers. Didn't have much luck with Cone's Inkthrift as it fades in a couple of days against the Claria, but we already know that.

    On the 3880, you can get Claria dye out of the 500ml ink carts made for the Noritsu D701/D703 and D1005 commercial printers in Black, Magenta, Cyan, and Yellow. You could dilute them 1:3 to get LM and LC with a clear ink like "i2i Clear Ink" and profile and cut as needed.

    Sources I use for Claria are: http://www.fotoclubinc.com/noritsu-d701-d703-d1005-inks.aspx for CMYK Claria in 500ml carts ($199 each).

    Clear ink base: http://screenpositive.com/i2i-absolute-clear-ink-for-screen-positives-1-liter-bottle/ ($88/liter).

    Will
     
  2. Aug 14, 2015
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    Inkjetmall is offering as well an Inkthrift CL ink which they claim comes closer to the Claria ink in terms of longevity, but I have not tested this particular ink

    Epson and Fujifilm, and Noritsu are selling photo finishing equipment using higher performance dye inkjet printers, Epson with their Surelab line, Fujifilm with their Drylab DL line - printers and inks, with 200 and 500ml cartridges. They all use Claria like inks. There are frequently dicsounted offers of Fujifilm DL cartridges on Ebay US which give you even a somewhat lower price
     
  3. Aug 14, 2015
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    I'm actually doing this on a R285 with good results.
    For diluting I use gloss optimizer, which seems to add a "mirror finish" on some glossy papers.
    As this is not always wanted, I will try a clear base too, but less expensive:
    https://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=PR-CLEARBASE-PT

    I want to try this also in my 3880 but haven't done it yet.
    - How is your experience with noritsu dye in the 3880?
    - And regarding dilution ratios: what is your dilution of K to LK and LLK?
    My dilution of M and C to LM and LC is the same as yours, 1+2=1/3,
    but with LK and LLK I'm not sure...
     
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  4. Aug 14, 2015
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    on my 7600 I only need a LK, I do it like the others - 2:1 dilution : ink, I'm doing my own profiles, so it wouldn't matter too much if that's not very close to the original
     
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  5. Aug 14, 2015
    W. Fisher

    W. Fisher Printing Ninja

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    I have the Claria cut right now in one 3880 for what I call a C7 B&W inkset, similar to the Cone K7 peizo ink.

    In the mix, I had to come up with a way to visualize the diluted mix of the lighter shades as well as see the tint of the mix. So I made some ink cuvettes which are thinly spaced pieces of Lexan from the hardware store separated by a doubled-up sheet of double-stick film from Hobby Lobby.

    The two double-sided sticky sheets work out to about 0.005" in thickness so very thin as being too thick with normal cuvettes makes the ink too black to see through. The width of the slit is about 3/4" but I would make it more shallow than mine to make it easier to wash out than shake the heck and wash with the deeper ones I made. Maybe 3/4-1" wide and about 1 inch deep would be enough. Only takes a couple of drops to fill the thing. A can of Dust-Off helps to dry them out for reuse. You can use a bright LED flashlight behind for the darker shades of ink to see the tint. I'll try an attach a photo if it on the light table.

    Problem was this Claria C7 B&W dye inkset is to be used on metallic papers like Red River Metallic, etc. so the paper's sheen can be seen through the dye ink over a covered pigment. That paper has a magenta carrier base when wet so the tinting becomes harder and swabbing isn't even close (Try wet brushing it an seeing the magenta show up!). My first batch was too red. The Noritsu (Epson Claria) has a bit of a green tint so it needs some Magenta and a bit of Yellow too to neutralize it.

    The following is going to be my Beta 2 C7 inkset once the initial run runs out which is now a bit too warm for me coming out of QTR software with a gamma 2.2 TIFF generated print.

    Inks used:
    Noritsu 102 Black (BK) from 500ml D701 printer cart.
    Claria Yellow (Y) from #79 cart from office supply (#79 contains 9ml, and the #78 cart contains 7ml).
    Claria Magenta (M) (As above #79)
    Claira Light Magenta (LM) (Magenta #78)
    i2i Absolute Clear Ink (CLR)

    To make the Light Yellow (LY) I diluted 1:3 with the i2i Absolute Clear Ink base.
    I also bought a pack of 3 dropper bottles to help in the weaker mixes from Hobby Lobby (Where I got the double-sided sticky sheets for the ink cuvettes.).

    *Note d stands for drops out of the dropper bottles. LY is Light Yellow (diluted Y above).

    Claria C7 B&W inkset for 3880 recipe (Beta):

    Shade 7 (Lightest Black) in 3880 Yellow cart position:
    70ml CLR, 19 d BK, 3 d LM, 7 d LY

    Shade 6 in Light Black (LK) position:
    68ml CLR, 46 d BK, 55 d LM, 15 d LY

    Shade 5 in Light Magenta (LM) position:
    70 ml CLR, 2.7ml BK, 30 d M, 32 d LY

    Shade 4 in Magenta (M) cart position:
    60ml CLR, 5.8ml BK, 1.8 ml M, 2.2ml LY

    Shade 3 in Light Cyan (LC) cart position:
    60ml CLR, 6ml BK, 2.2ml M, 1.1ml Y

    Shade 2 in Cyan (C) cart position:
    43ml CLR, 13ml BK, 2.6ml M, 1ml Y

    Shade 1 (Blackest) in PK cart position:
    2 ml CLR, 58ml BK, 5ml M, 1ml Y

    My current first (Alpha) run shows the gloss differential issue with the straight full BK used in the PK cart (That Noritsu BK black is BLACK!). Others are all glossy, but the full strength Shade 1 isn't as glossy as I'd like so I am re-working the Shade 1 to the above, plus to get rid of the natural teal-green tint of the Claria BK black. The second run through the printer with Gloss Optimizer (Cone's) helps with that matter.

    Good luck!

    Will
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  6. Aug 14, 2015
    W. Fisher

    W. Fisher Printing Ninja

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    Forgot to add, to the above C7 beta recipe I've also added an additional drop of BK to Shade 7 (Lightest shade of black). The QTR curves showed the Yellow curve almost peaking out so it needed more black added to the Shade 1 and it is in the Beta above. That should drop the Yellow curve a bit. Maybe one more drop to 20 d BK...?

    I'll attach the Curve out of QTR for my C7 Alpha mix (The one now loaded.) and the linearization chart off a 21 step chart in Gamma Gray 2.2 read with an i1 PhotoPro2 which is looking pretty good.

    I'll try an attach a zip file of the *.quad profile I'm using that goes into the QTR directory. i.e. Quadtone > Quad3880-K7 folder once unzipped. This is my current Alpha quad file I'm now using that produced the above linearization and curves, but it might be close on the beta above too with some minor tuning work in a spreadsheet, especially in the Yellow since I've darkened it a bit in the above which should lower it - in theory.

    Good luck!

    Will
     

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  7. Aug 14, 2015
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    My dilutions are much simpler.
    I use the 4color drylab inkset from fujifilm (like noritsu out of 500ml cartridges)

    - "DL 4-6color" (color dye set for epson 6colors claria printers)
    you only have to dilute C and M to make LC and LM:
    LC: 33% C
    LM: 33% M

    - "DL K6" (b&w dye set for epson 6colors claria printers)
    Dilutions according to paul roarks calculations for "eboni-6":
    K: 100 black ink
    C: 30% black ink
    M: 18% black ink
    LC: 9% black ink
    LM: 6% black ink
    Y: 2% black ink

    These sets are working fine regarding the dilution ratios.
    (What sort of thinner to use is another question)

    ---------

    The folllowing two sets for the epson 3880 I have not tried in practice yet, only calculated from the other sets and stepwedges made by user RogerB with QTR and alternatives from other sources, including paul roark.

    - project "DL c6k3" (color dye set for epson 8colors printers, e.g. pro3880)
    My calculation is as follows:
    LC: 33%
    LM: 25% (or 33%)
    LK: 50% (or 30% ?? /see below)
    LLK: 15% (or 9-12% ?? /see below)


    - project "DL K8" (b&w dye set for epson 8colors printers, e.g. pro3880)
    According to Paul Roarks "eboni-6" / see above the "DL-K6" dilution
    K: 100% K
    C: 30% K
    M: 18% K
    LC: 9% K
    LM: 6% K
    Y: 2% K
    - PLUS LK and LLK:
    (quote from eboni-6 instruction: "K3 printers can use M and LM in the Lk and LLK positions. They can also use C and LC in the LK and LLK position.")
    - LK: 18% / 30% K ??
    - LLK: 6% / 9% K ??

    There are some question marks... but I will try it, regardless of the very exact matching of UCK3.
    Because profiling is needed anyway - and will even out the differencies, I think

    Any thoughts regarding my dilution ratios for the last two sets?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
  8. Aug 15, 2015
    The Hat

    The Hat Printer VIP Moderator

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    I maybe be missing something here, but why would anybody want to run such a great printer on Dye inks, it just doesn’t make any sense. ?
    Enlighten me someone..:idunno
     
  9. Aug 15, 2015
    W. Fisher

    W. Fisher Printing Ninja

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    To answer why Dye vs. Pigment question, I use dye to allow for the metallic paper's aluminized (or gold in some cases) sheen off the base to shine through. Pigment cover's up the aluminized looking surface of the paper. Others claim a larger gamut than pigment too.

    Remember the Candy Apple car finishes where they sprayed a gold or silver undercoat, and then the top coat was a transparent color like a blue red or green on top. It adds some depth and sheen to the car's color where if they were to spray an opaque paint it would ruin the effect of the candy apple paint job. Pretty much the same thing for dye vs. pigment ink on metallics.

    The other ink mixer guy in California, Paul Roark, also claims better results with dye ink on the metallic prints that he sells in a gallery. My mix, Claria C7, is just a few more tanks (7 total for the 3880) as he built his around the 5-6 tank models (I think?). He also wasn't happy with the green tint of the Claria BK Black so he tinted it too. I think he left the Yellow as a separate color if I recall his writings.

    Also, I want to find a way to improve the glossiness of the BK Black though as it does show some differential gloss, but so do most other 3rd parties ink as well. The overcoats help, but on a glossy paper it still comes up as a dull black. Too much and it reverses the L readings in the i1 too. I diluted it in the above to it might help, as well as some Magenta to knock down the green tint. Time will tell when I load that batch, and maybe pull down the Black density curve in the *.quad file too and just apply it for the final "hint of black." Someone else mentioned a glossier mix of the Claria above too that I need to look into for a possible differential remedy.

    Fwiw, I have used the Cone K7 Selenium but it had a tint I didn't like on metallic and some other papers. Once you use it, you are pretty much stuck forever with that tint as you cannot change it. So I opted to tint leaving the B&W image in Adobe RGB and tinting via Qimage to the printer with normal K3 inks. For B&W or piezography inksets, I think it's better to mix your own tint color to one you like. Cone's selenium ink had a yellowish look to me, where my old photo chemistry selenium prints had a cooler purple look to the blacks which I preferred. Subjective tastes for sure, but I recall I left the wet prints longer than my classmates in the Kodak Selenium bath too (Not crazy about greenish or yellowish prints at all!).

    Will.
     
  10. Aug 15, 2015
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    you could get dye inks even for greater, no - bigger printers like the Pro 7600, or Canon offers larger format printers with dye or pigment inks. It could be cost, but mainly it's the characteristics of the pigment inks in some situations which are not welcomed - bronzing, gloss and gloss differential.
    It's somewhat tricky to find good combinations of 3rd party inks and papers which show those effects only to a small amount, In the last half year I didn't just test about 10 dye inks for UV sensitivity but as well lots of pigment inks and papers for a suitable combination. One problem is your own perception, once you started looking for those effects you cannot overlook them anymore, other people are mostly much less sensitive to it. Once in a while I ask people specifically to look onto printouts for technical issues, imperfections etc, and show them printouts of the same image on various papers or with different inks, and let them compare the surface effects, in reflecting light, from the side etc and listen to their comments. I don't explain specifically what effect to look for, otherwise they would be biased the next time.
    Let me just describe some of the effects I saw , the photo black of the Inktec K3 ink set has a very strong light metallic shine against reflecting light, I have a semiglossy paper on which cyan has a strong bronzing effect into violett, just very obvious, the effect is less on other papers, I have another semiglossy paper on which cyan appears to be matte which looks terrible as well, several different inks with that effect. I tried a glossy paper on which the gloss differences between colors was pretty pronounced, but not on another type of glossy paper with the same ink set. And when I print targets to measure the data for a profile I find differences in the gamut between inks, on the same paper, and between different papers with the same ink, and the black level varies rather strongly depending on the black ink and the paper tested. You have much lesser effects of most of these - dye inks are more well behaving. Oh well, but not always, I had a cyan dye from OCP which was bronzing visibly on glossy papers, on several types.

    Somebody recently raised the question how to recognize a printer addict ......

    So back to the starting question - why dye inks on a 3880.........yes - it can make sense
     

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