Dye or Pigment Ink for 3880 Question

[W. Fisher]

I have QTR for the RIP and can change the *.quad files for QTR myself to alter the density. Just takes a spreadsheet and Notepad++ to do so, and a lot of test trials too.

The *.quad files opened in (freeware) Notepad++ identify the inks and you just have to change the values beneath them higher (more ink) or lower for less ink. Apply a percentage or multiplier like 0.8 or 1.2 to them all in that particular ink color and you are set in altering them.

I pulled the BK down (in the attached *.quad file) to about a third of what it was originally. Blacks are now blacker with less gloss differential (matte dullness) so "less was more black." Not as black as with an airbrush though which was L*=3.5, but I got a L* of 7 so not too bad over the former L*11.5.

My airbrush testing is better than the wet brushing and swabbing of the ink too. The later two disturb the RR Metallic paper's coating and it becomes magenta so it's hard to measure. The airbrush doesn't do that and is more like I'd expect out of the printer. Too bad the printer cannot replicate the numbers of the airbrush spray nor the gloss from it (No differential gloss at all!).

Surface is indeed playing into this and maybe a switch to a more textured surface might help with the DG. Maybe Inkpress Satin/Luster Metallic or the PermaJet Titanium Luster 280 Metallic, but for now the Red River Metallic Glossy will be the (cheap) test paper for the mixing of the dye inks.

Least I haven't had a clog or nozzle check go bad yet in this mixing. The "i2i Absolute Clear Ink" seems to have some wetting agent in it as it foams a bit when shaken and more than the other 3rd party inks too (Some have no foaminess at all.). PhotoFlo perhaps. I sort of worried that the slow trial mixing of the inks or the combo of i2i Clear ink might plug it, but so far so good. I thought it thickened when it got blacker when stirring it up and that it might trash the printer, but it hasn't affected it (yet).

Can't wait until I use up the first run batch and see what becomes of the second batch of C7. Should have mixed a smaller batch, maybe 30ml instead of 70ml, but the small measuring gets too tedious and critical.

Attached a less BK *.quad file to help with the differential gloss matter of the first. Call it version 2. I can see I need to add more BK to the LC, C, LM, Y tanks too from the QTR Curves it shows as they are peaking. At least the 500ml of Claria out of the Noritsu 102 cart will last for several refills of the entire cart array.

Back to a work in progress...

Will.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Yes, I don't like to switch between MK and PK, so I rather like to use a darker Pk which should give a darker black as well on matte papers, and a drop of a dark gray to a decent black is more visible than a drop from black to a deeper black on a print, I don't use MK at all since a longer time. But the Epson inks are pricewise not my choice so I'll wait for the Lyson etc compatibles to make some more measurements/profiles. This was just a first test for orientation.
The Fujifilm DL black is a better black, but the differences to other dye black inks are not that significant that this would be the sole reason for purchase - it is the much better longevity in this case. I may mention that the (L) a/b color values of the DL black are practically zero, it is a pretty neutral black, and the DL black differs in this respect from other black dye inks - most are more in the dark cyan region which should become visible when diluting such black ink for a B/W ink set. O.k., I'm not in specialized B/W printing so this wouldn't count for me.

Yes, typically dye black - as long it did not fade away - is darker on the same paper than a pigment ink - PK - at least with those I'm using

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

@ W.Fisher - yes, only a RIP offers the capabilities to tune and optimize each ink channel for the ink amount, and it's good to hear that this works that nicely with the QTR in your case

 

[W. Fisher]

@ Ink stained Fingers, I was just watching the video (mid-page) on Claria ink here http://www.epson.com.sg/epson_singapore/explore_epson/innovation/epson_claria_ink.page and it struck me that maybe what Epson is doing with their newest black ink you mentioned is possibly they've packed the atoms even tighter into their ink molecules to make it even blacker? Maybe last longer too if it follows their Claira longevity explanation in the video.

If so, that's going to tougher for the 3rd parties to make if it is under a tight license. I was surprised to see the Noritsu ink box said "Made in Japan" so maybe they are trying to keep their formulation close to home to avoid copying or pirating of the new ink.

Will.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

if you want to read some more what Fujifilm has done for the UV stability you may read these
links

Probably it's not only the cost but also the research and development of dyes and the availability which is prohibitive (there are many "trade secrets" in all msds).
In brochures noritsu and fuji frontier are promoting a certain molecular structure of their dyes which is more stable than other
http://www.noritsu.com/downloads/D502.pdf (see p 4)
For the chemists here I have something to read about fujifilm dye ink research and development, which seems to correspond with the promotion
http://www.fujifilm.com/about/research/report/054/pdf/index/ff_rd054_all_en.pdf
(see p 35 - 42)

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Epson and Fujifilm/Noritsu are running similar product lines with their Surelab/Drylab equipment.
I found a note, a test which suggests that the Epson Ultrachrome D6 and Fujifilm DL inks - at least the blacks are quite similar if not the same

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UltraChrome-D6-Noritsu-blacks-compared-b.pdf

He did not test the logenvity of those inks

 

[martin0reg]

As said already the color prints with fuji DL are showing very good UV-resistance.
(tested under a UV-bulb 7days/24hrs)
But to my suprise with my B&W ink set, diluted from fuji DL black ink only, the prints are turning - brown!
It doesn't look really fade out, more like sepia toning:

I don't understand why, because the color prints with fuji DL are fading very slowly and particularly without such a color cast to the brown side...

 

[The Hat]

@martin0reg, a lot of inkjet black inks tend to turn a bit red from fading.

O’ by the way,I like the faded photo much better it’s more pleasing to my eye, maybe you’re on to something with that ink mix..

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I'm just testing with solid color patches , maximum ink density whatever the printer puts out onto the paper, that may actually be oversaturated, taking longer in a fade test than patches with less ink density. I guess, just guess, that the dilution effect would occur with other inks as well, so the relative benefit in fading, reaching a particular level of reduction would remain in comparison to other inks, those inks diluted would fade even faster. I can confirm that about all black color patches are turning brown after a while, dark brown, milk chokolade brown up to a dirty yellow the longer they are exposed. The other colors loose saturation and turn lighter, but don't change color so much , cyan is not turning green or whatever,, just by observation, without measurements.