Do I have a problem with dry sponges

[rodbam]

MIS Associates (inksupply.com) when Epson threatened them and others roughly 6+ years ago.

This is the same as what happened to my mate but why didn't Epson go after the makers &/or the importers of these infringing products? It's easy pickings for a big company to scare off little people like my mate & MIS.
Anyhow I have some nice looking sponges now, I held the cartridges over the ink bottle & pulled the plug out to drain the cartridge then replugged & blew through the air maze vent which got rid of the saturation from the top sponged. I've just refilled & they look like bought ones I tried the top fill method & got ink on my hands so I'm now a confirmed German refiller again

 

[panos]

I tried the top fill method & got ink on my hands so I'm now a confirmed German refiller again

That sums up the great advantage of the Durchstich method. Convenience. Yes, it does leave a track on the sponge, yes it does leave an open hole on the cartridge, yes it does require hard to find needles but after everything it's said and done, it's the fastest, tidiest and easiest of them all.

panos -- a burden to the German people.

 

[martin0reg]

Which advice are you referring to and why does it seem to be wrong?

This is not good. The upper portion of the sponge should be filled with more ink too.

On the first photo by rodbam the refilled carts were okay with less saturation of the upper sponge.
On the second photo 24 hrs later they are also okay, as long as the ink does not reach the air vent and will flow down from the upper sponge to make it breathing.
On miklings cartridge the state is the best IMHO.

Beside this it has nothing to do with durchstich or top fill method, it only depends on the condition of the sponge, how it is flushed and how it will suck the ink. You fill the ink chamber, not the sponge.

You can even refill through the outlet port. With a bended needle:

http://master-print.info/?art=35

PS: the link is from russian user "@aaa".
I am from germany. Panos is from greece (no your not my burden, my loved sister in law is greek too).
I much appreciate all the postings from our canadian expert mikling, no matter if he fills traditional, german or russian.
And I am also worried about global economics but that might be too hard to explain with my poor english...

 

[The Hat]

I am amazed at all of the who-ha over the OEM cartridge and whether its right or wrong to oversaturation the sponges or not.
When refilling if you dont over saturate the sponge thats good and when refilling if you do oversaturated thats no problem either despite the here say.

I think the reason that Canon dont oversaturated the sponge is that they can guarantee the cartridge will work
straight out of the package because the air path will never be blocked from ink, thats probably why they under fill them (just guessing).

I print very few photos probably 2 dozen a year or less but I do however print commercially,
leaflets, posters, flyers and brochures and anything else that people want.

Most of my cartridges have saturated sponges from continued top filling but I do not over fill the reservoir
and none of these cartridges give me any sign of problems from constant use.

Some of the sheets I print use so much ink that they will empty my cartridges after 25 to 30 sheets
because of the amount of solids used on them and will run unattended for hours without any problems.

Now if the cartridges I use gave me any trouble I would immediately change them
or the method in which I refill them for something better because I need reliable ink flow
and cant afford to stand over the printers all day long checking and worrying if everything is alright.

I do use CISS, compatibles and refilled OEM cartridges and can say there is no difference in the reliability of any of them
and each have their own qualities, however I dont use compatibles for heavy usage work and never refill them.

I wrote this thread because the refilling method I use works for me it may not be perfect but it works,
I do however look, listen, learn and try other methods promoted on this forum
but sadly I am drawn back to the evil way of top filling because I find its 100% dependable.

Happy Refilling..

 

[rodbam]

Reading the posts on this forum it's clear many people are happy with what they have become used to & the cartridges perform every time after every refill. Most of my problems came from not being so sure of how I'm doing things & the quest to refill my cartridges to nearly full because of my inexperience in trusting the ink monitor when the cartridge is only about 3/4 full.
As I stand at the moment I can refill using the German method without taking any precautions & not a trace of ink on my hands but again when I did the top fill method I just put a few drops more ink in at the 3/4 full point & some ink bubbled out of the top refill hole, so it's my fault again for not stopping just at the 3/4 full point. I'm now fully comfortable with the how I've ended up with the German method & I've also solved my hatred of cutting little squares of tape to put over the refill hole by remembering how ghwellsJr taped his up in his video by using 1/2" wide electrical tape cut across the width & he wrapped it on three sides of the cartridge which makes it so quick & easy.
This thread has now taught me how to overcome an over saturated upper sponge & has given me the feeling of knowing the cartridge a lot better.
Thanks to everyone who posted.
I won't start another post about what can I do when I use the German method & forget to put the main plug back in the cartridge after flushing like I just did, I thought my squeezy bottle was leaking when ink started running everywhere. I didn't count this episode in my ink free hands statement above

 

[ghwellsjr]

Reading the posts on this forum it's clear many people are happy with what they have become used to & the cartridges perform every time after every refill.
...
I'm now fully comfortable with the how I've ended up with the German method & I've also solved my hatred of cutting little squares of tape to put over the refill hole by remembering how ghwellsJr taped his up in his video by using 1/2" wide electrical tape cut across the width & he wrapped it on three sides of the cartridge which makes it so quick & easy...

I wish now I had never made those videos of the German method because it was recently pointed out that I was doing it wrong. If you want to do it right, you must use a sharp needle and you must put the hole up higher so that you actually pierce the sponge material rather than sliding underneath it like I was promoting. If you do that, there is no risk of a leak. I had a leak even with tape (although I reused the same piece of tape like I show in my second video). I also found that sometimes the tape would come loose from the sides when I wrapped it like you are doing.

In any case, I no longer use the German method, either my corrupted version or the original correct one. I use my new Freedom Refill Method that does not compromise the cartridge in any way (no holes, no tape, no plugs) and refills the cartridge so that it looks just like a new OEM cartridge with the same ink pattern on the upper sponge. I'd show you some pictures but they're the same as new OEM's so you already know what they look like.

 

[ghwellsjr]

When I joined this forum five years ago, my second post discussed the issue of the sponges. I pointed out in that post that before the two-sponge design, Canon's cartridges were BCI-3 (not BCI-3e) and had only one sponge (click on the thumbnail to see a larger version of the picture):



I also pointed out in that post that the two sponges were different, the one on top did not readily absorb ink but was there to allow air flow to the groves along the wall dividing the two chambers, while the one on the bottom was meant to flow ink.

Several claims have been made on this thread questioning these concepts so I decided to run some tests to confirm my statements.

I flushed and dried several BCI-3e dye ink cartridges so the sponges were nice and clean and very dry.

First I placed an unmodifed cartridge right side up in a bowl with a little cyan ink in it. The ink soaked up through the outlet port and into the bottom sponge. Here is a picture after about 5 minutes, although it only took a couple minutes for the ink to completely saturate the bottom sponge and it made no effort to penetrate the upper sponge:

Next, I ripped off the top of a cartridge and removed the two pieces of sponge material and reinserted them in the wrong order so that the air-loving sponge was on the bottom and the ink-loving sponge was on the top. After more than 20 minutes, the ink had not soaked all the way to the top of the air-loving sponge. In fact, it looks just like it does when it is on top of a normal new OEM cartridge:

Then to test the competing theory that it is just the physical gap between the two sponges that inhibits the flow of ink between them, I modified another cartridge so that it had two pieces of the bottom ink-loving sponge in it. As you can see, this theory doesn't hold water:

Finally, I took two pieces of the sponge material and held one end in the ink. The ink-loving sponge soaked up ink so fast that I had to remove it from the ink in order to not get my fingers stained with ink. It's the one on the left. The air-loving sponge did not soak up ink readily. Even after several minutes, the ink had not progressed very far. It's the one on the right:

So, as always, I say, let testing prove your points.

 

[martin0reg]

ghwells, thank you for this clever and convincing test!

 

[stratman]

... you must use a sharp needle and you must put the hole up higher so that you actually pierce the sponge material rather than sliding underneath it like I was promoting. If you do that, there is no risk of a leak.

No, you do not have to use a sharp needle at any time. I am not the only one who has reproduced this successfully time and time again. I use an 18 gauge blunt needle exclusively. Sharp or blunt needles work. It is way overdue for this myth about needles to end.

I use a conveniently marked location on the side of the cartridge to make the refill hole which works every time. It is somewhere in the "PP" of the ">PP<" as seen on the side of the cartridge.

IMO, something else besides a properly tapped and refilled cartridge must occur for a leak from the Durchstich hole, which usually equates to increased pressure (or partial pressure) within the cartridge such as from external force applied, increased temperature, or maybe a significant and rapid change in barometric pressure.

A leaking refill hole otherwise may mean the user is not doing something(s) properly such as you pointed about too low placement of the Durchstich hole.

All the methods have a learning curve. All the methods work. All the methods have pitfalls. All the methods have proven variables which may be interchanged (silicone plugs vs screws or sharp vs blunt needles for instance). Problems generally occur either because of inexperience, impatience or attempts to alter proven methodologies. Ineptitude or physical limitations continue to be factors which may require changing refill methods. Because of the proven track records of both Traditional and Durchstich refill methods, complaints are more likely reflections of the user, not the method, and have no or little value in determining the viability of the method overall - a singular exception would be the inherent messiness of the Traditional method, which is easily managed but may sway some to try the Durchstich method.

I have read your thread on the Freedom refill method and it is intriguing. Good job on building a better mousetrap!

 

[stratman]

Several claims have been made on this thread questioning these concepts so I decided to run some tests to confirm my statements.

New OEM cartridges have ink partially saturating the upper sponge. Some have commented in the forum about having ink coloring all the sponge area and having no problems printing. Someone has commented that a saturated upper sponge caused them ink flow problems during long printing sessions presumably from inability of the sponge to "breathe".

Can you do a test with a saturated sponge - a sponge with no white showing - and see if there is a problem with ink flow? This seems to be the real functional issue here, not the differences in sponge geometry or speculating why Cannon doesn't provide another 0.5 ml's in their cartridges. (I don't know if there is a difference between a fully colored sponge and a "super"-saturated sponge in this circumstance, nor know how you would control for these variables.)