Do I have a problem with dry sponges

[stratman]

IMHO it is just the other way: it can be a problem, if the upper sponge would be just as fully saturated as the lower.

The upper SHOULD be NOT as saturated as the lower, because that upper sponge should be able to "breathe".

Because air must be getting from the sponge chamber to the ink chamber to let ink go vice versa.

As long as the LOWER sponge is fully saturated and the ink flows through, it should be okay.

PS: The air goes through tne air vent into the sponge chamber and through the upper sponge down to the level of the lower sponge. On this level there are small ridges on the separating wall (on the sponge side) to let the air flowing even lower to the "ink tunnel" between the two chambers.

You state the upper sponge must breathe in order to allow transfer of air to equalize pressure inside the cartridge and allow ink to flow from spongeless side to sponged side and ultimately ink to flow out the ink ejection port.

If the lower sponge is saturated, how does air get through it to breathe as well?

Why would a saturated upper sponge behave differently than a saturated lower sponge if air gets through a saturated lower sponge?

A factory fresh cartridge has saturation at the interface of upper and lower sponges - how does it breathe at this junction if it is saturated?

 

[stratman]

I realize people want to emulate what a factory fresh cartridge looks like but it is not rigidly necessary based on my, and others, experiences. I have some cartridges with sponges completely colored by ink and they work perfectly. Maybe I have not "super"-saturated the sponge or printed enough consecutive prints with a "super"-saturated sponge and therefore had no problems. I also fill to about 2-4 mm from the top of the spongeless side and never had a problem. Ghwellsjr has filled his to the top without issue IIRC.

I did not notice the top plugs, rodbam. Good job trying out unplugging them, which resolved your issue.

 

[martin0reg]

..
If the lower sponge is saturated, how does air get through it to breathe as well?

Why would a saturated upper sponge behave differently than a saturated lower sponge if air gets through a saturated lower sponge?

There are these ridges (not ridges but grooves - my english is all? anything! but perfect) in the sponge chamber which are going from the tunnel to the upper sponge.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6221
In most cases the upper sponge is not as saturated as the lower, the upper can be colored too but probably not as "wet" as the lower which mainly takes the ink to the outlet.
This is my explanation for the two-sponge-design. But as long as the ink flows I would not be too critical about that.

 

[Tin Ho]

I realize people want to emulate what a factory fresh cartridge looks like but it is not rigidly necessary based on my, and others, experiences.

It is not a matter of wanting the look of a new OEM ink cartridge. If a sponge shows resistance of absorbing ink it will be resistant to discharge ink too. This means the sponge is choked or restricted. The ink flow iwll be restricted as a result.

The OP stopped filling the cartridge above the upper layer of the sponge. The problem is the ink probably had difficulty to spread into the lower layer of the sponge too. If you use these ink cartridges to print large photos or print photos continuously there will be a good chance the nozzles will be burnt because the ink flows are somewhat restricted. You may be able to get away from light printing. But with large print jobs you can expect a damaged print head eventually.

Don't purge ink cartridges that contain dye based ink with water. If you really want to do it then do it with ink. Fill the sponge with ink then blow through the vent to force the ink out of the sponge. Do it 2 - 3 times and the sponge will work like new. The ink can be collected and reused still.

 

[mikling]

Well so far I feel everything said about the upper and lower is in place. There is some more to it though and you'll see why it works itself out. The upper sponge as mentioned before is more porous and its ability to absorb and retain ink is less than the lower portion.
If you over fill the top sponge it is not likely to be a problem ( as long as we do not block the top vents.) When the printer requires ink from the cartridge, any excess beyond the saturation of the two sponges will naturally come out first..hence the drips if overfilled then the top layer of the sponge will give it up next. That means that nothing comes out of the tank and thus air is not required to travel down to the bottom. Even if the cartridge was very overfilled, the excess ink that is blocking the grooves will be consumed first before the top sponge is totally drained and before the tank calls for air. As the ink is further consumed, the top layer will empty itself first and eventually it will become drained. At a certain point, the top portion will have so little ink that it doesn't want to give up what little it has ( if any) and the tank takes over. When this happens, because the top is drained and is quite porous, air will travel down through the top sponge and reach the slits/grooves. ( The fact that the slits/grooves are there and allow air to travel down WITHOUT the saturated sponge blocking the travel is what allows the German method of refilling to work. FWIW that is why the hole created in the german method does not leak ink. The sponge properties hold the ink at a certain saturation level and does not let ink out)

 

[websnail]

Just my opinion but I'm not sure I agree completely with the top sponge coming second in the process rather than the spongeless tank for a couple of reasons.

The lower sponge is highly absorbent and, while the top sponge, is less so the path of least resistance and greatest head pressure is the sponge-less tank. Given the location of the gap between the sponge/sponge-less sections it would seem reasonable to deduce the ink in the tank is absorbed into the lower sponge section as its own volume is used up.

I suggest that the sponge above still has more resistance to letting its ink go than the sponge-less section so perhaps where there might be some concern is with regard to what happens when the sponge-less tank is empty.

Concern? Well primarily because the cartridge has its prism that indicates low ink whether the chip has said so or not (a separate topic of much debate) and from that point makes a calculated assumption about the amount of ink remaining. If the top sponge is, as I've suggested the header tank reserve for when the main flow (from sponge-less) has been exhausted then if there's less in there the cartridge could run dry before the printer recognises that the cartridge is actually empty.

This is pure speculation on my part and may be incorrect in some respects but something to mull over...

 

[Tin Ho]

Well so far I feel everything said about the upper and lower is in place. There is some more to it though and you'll see why it works itself out. The upper sponge as mentioned before is more porous and its ability to absorb and retain ink is less than the lower portion.

Come on, Mikling. You need to do some home work before making a stunning statement of your misconception again. To make this statement it tells that you do not have a correct understanding how Canon ink cartridges work.

The upper and lower sponges are made of identical material. Try to cut open a CLI-8 ink cartridge and remove the sponges and put them under a microscope to take a look yourself. You will not see one sponge being more porous than the other. They are identical.

We call it sponge. Actually it is not sponge. It is a felt made of synthetic micro fibers or wools. The fibers are actually stacked horizontally. This makes the ink more likely to flow horizontally. It looks like two layers of sponge but actually there are two pieces of felt stacked together. When you cut open a CLI-8 two felts will come out rather than one. It makes good sense that the fibers are running horizontally. When ink is consumed it wants ink to flow horizontally in the direction from the bottom of the reservoir toward the outlet. It won't suck ink out of the reservoir just yet. It will suck away the ink in the slit first. Ink in the upper felt will flow horizontally toward the slit then flows downward toward the bottom felt, then turn around flow toward the outlet.

Eventually the upper felt is emptied. Air reaches the bottom of the slit, that's when air and ink in the reservoir exchanges with each other. Ink begins to flow out of the reservoir horizontally from the reservoir toward the outlet. Ink does move downward vertically when there is a lot of ink in the felt. But the horizontally stacked fibers demand the ink to flow more likely horizontally. This is how the OEM ink cartridges are better in supplying a more reliable ink flow. The reason calls for two stacked felts is so that the gap between the two creates a more difficult barrier for the ink to flow directly across from the upper to the lower felt. This design wants the ink to flow more easily horizontally. I believe this is a patented design of Canon.

I have not seen a single Chinese made compatible ink cartridge that use felts made of synthetic micro fibers. It is more expensive and it is patented.

If you over fill the top sponge it is not likely to be a problem ( as long as we do not block the top vents.)

I would be very careful in making a statement like this. There are many reasons Canon does not fill up the top sponge. You are ignoring those important reasons to make a statement like this one.

 

[mikling]

Gee after handling over thousands of Canon carts I didn't realize that! WoW

So enlightening. TH you are so knowledgeable. I am humbled thoroughly. I thought that sponge looked like fibers but I never knew.

Thanks for the info.



Now I understand my poor ink ran horizontally across the SPONGE made of fibers and hit the end and then splattered up towards the top. That's what happened ! Gosh The ink molecules I hope had their seatbelts on and I wish there were air bubbles because that would then work like an air bag and save them from getting hurt.

 

[rodbam]

Thanks all. Yes I was surprised how much vacuum there was in the ink side & because the refill had a few problems I tend not to trust using the cartridges unless they look near to normal.

The question I will ask is why use the German method when you have proper plugs and storage clips?

I put the plugs in so I could flush the cartridges. I was trying the top fill method on my IP 5000 & the German method on my pro9000 when I first started out & I had a cleaner refill using the German method. Because the new OEM cartridges looked to be full to the top I thought I needed my cartridges to be full so I could trust the ink monitor but now I have refilled a few times I have the confidence to know that a 3/4 filled ink well will be fine until the first empty warning so I don't really have to fill to top now, even though I have been doing this.
I will give the top fill method another try now & see how I go as it will be easier for me if I can get clean refills because having to cut the little bits of tape to cover the refill hole using the German method drives me nuts because I find it very fiddly with my old hands.
This is now where I'm at with the cartridges having stood for 24 hours, do you think I should empty & flush them out or just put them in the printer & see how it goes? Before you Americans answer just remember the pro9000 down here costs $1050 (I got it discount for $800) so we don't want to take any risks like we would on a $200 printer which you can get this printer for

 

[mikling]

Rod, look at my poor cart that got splattered above. Doesn't look too much different from the first ones you filled. It worked without skipping a beat You'll be fine. Have a beer sit back and relax. The carts will work, don't worry too much. You'll find out that the process is quite forgiving regardless of how you choose to fill.

The first warning is a good time to swap them all out and refill -- the way you like; as long as it prints fine.