Canon MX870 Duplex Ink Usage SCAM!

[lin]

lin On the duplex page (with plain paper mode & Grayscale selected), it does not mixed the dye CMKY CLI-8 carts to produce black.

When performing duplex document printing on my two Canon printers they only use yellow, cyan and magenta inks and no others.
The two black inks are reserved for plain paper with text (pigment) while the BK black is used on matte/photo paper.

It has nothing to do with the drying time or the wasting of inks but solely to prevent
the text showing through the opposite side of plain copier paper as stratman mentioned earlier.

If you check a one sided document against a duplex document you will clearly see that the one-sided document is blacker and sharper
(pigment ink only) than the duplex printed document which has lighter and thicker text caused by the dye inks..

As I said, (for normal printing and not copying function) as long as plain paper mode is selected and grayscale is selected, despite duplex printing, it uses pigment black on the duplex page. Any matte paper, high resolution paper & Photo paper mode, they will use dye ink from the CLI-8 cart.

Pls try these test on your printer and see how it goes for your printer. Create a word document, with the Page 1 (front page) text on top and Page 2 (Reverse Back Page) text on the bottom (as show in the below picture). Print out with these setting on a A4 plain paper with Pigment Ink on the PGI-5BK (or rather the bigger cart). If you have refilled the PGI5BK cart with dye black previously there may be leftover dye at the nozzle channel. So pls perform a deep cleaning for the pigment black cart, and printout several pages of a full block of Black purge print page using Plain Paper mode & GrayScale setting before performing the test below. This will ensure the ink channel at the PGI-5BK at the printhead is all cleared of any dye ink.

Test Setting for normal printing (not Copying function):
- Plain paper mode,
- select grayscale and
- duplex printing.
- Have Pigment Ink for the PGI-5BK
(Pls do not use any HP Bright white or colorlok plain paper as I am not too sure how these paper will affect the test result. Ordinary Copier Plain paper will do 70/80 gsm will do).

Click to enlarge picture

Let it dry 5 mins or more whatever time/days you think are appropriate, (you may like to cut the A4 paper into half horizontally) run the printout under tap for a 1 mins. Remove the paper from the tap and observe the text on the duplex page, now let the paper dry. What do see on the reverse duplex page? If it only uses "yellow, cyan and magenta inks" on the reverse duplex page as you have claimed, all the black text printed would have bleeded/faded/washout (depending on the amount of time you run it under tap).

Now let assume someone claimed that the duplex page had mixed of pigment & the composite dye ink CLI-8 cart, what would happened to the above test. If there had been a mixed of pigment ink with the composite dye for the reverse duplex page, you will see that the surrounding the black text would show sign of bleeds despite the black text is not totally washout, that is because of the nature of these ordinary dye ink & the way pigment behaves (water-resistence). If the pigment ink alone was used on the duplex page, the black text will not show any sign of bleeds of text but appear rather sharp. So if you want to just test to see if pigment & composite dye ink was used on the duplex page for plain paper mode & grayscale for black text printing, pls do not soak the printout in tray of water until all the colors have run out. Because all that you need to catch is the color bleedings of the ink (dye ink). Couple of mins 1 or 2 should be enough.

 

[garne2t]

@stratman,
Thank you for the ink recommendations.

To be clear stratman and lin, I don't believe pigment black is used on either side of the page for duplex printing on plain paper with grayscale selected, or for copying by hitting "Black" button for B&W copy. Hat seems to agree. In addition, here is the response I got, after several rounds with different support people, from the "Contact Center Supervisor" at Canon regarding my concerns with duplex printing AND copying:

"Composite black is used when automatic duplexing."

At no time during my email support exchange with Canon did any of the 5 or so support reps that responded give the explanation of pigment black used in combination with cyan dye or any other dye ink.

Printing Odd pages and then turning over pages, changing paper source to tray, then printing even pages, is very inconvenient and error prone. That should not be required to print duplex. Defeats the whole purpose of selecting a printer that prints automatic duplex.

So, the problem remains that this printer, and all Canon printers according to Canon, will not allow me to truly print grayscale duplex. I still fail to see any reason why that would be the case other than to allow Canon to earn more on ink. At a minimum, I should be given the option to print in the way I tell the printer to print!

I found other blogs where unhappy customers were talking about how HP printers have the same problem. One of the blogs I found was 5 years old and obviously nothing has changed.

Anyone think a class action lawsuit might get their attention?

 

[The Hat]

garne2t
I wouldnt worry about how the printer goes about duplex printing as you said
its much more convenient than turning the sheet yourself.

If it is any comfort to you to know that duplex printing uses far less ink than single side print and turn does..

 

[gigigogu]

I am certain that my IP4500 uses only pigment black under Linux Mint and pigment black and at least cyan under XP, for grayscale duplex.

 

[garne2t]

@Hat, How do you figure that duplex printing could possible use less ink? Composite black uses 3 colors to make black instead of one color--black. Plus I need to keep buying color ink cartridges which I rarely need/use instead of the larger black cartridges that give you more ink for the price. Everything I have read says color printing costs significantly more that black and white--about 3x.

It just really irritates me when companies do things to screw the customers and I think this is a perfect example. I have yet to hear any rational reason why the printer would be designed to force you to use composite black for grayscale printing and disallow the use of pigment black. The only reason I can see is that it requires more ink and Canon makes big money on ink.

 

[garne2t]

Here's is the latest reply from the Contact Center Supervisor named Rodney at Canon:

"I'm sorry that you are disappointed. To be clear, there is nothing to be 'fixed' on this printer. It cannot print and duplex using black ink only. While I can appreciate that you want it to print using black ink only in the duplex mode, it cannot. Therefore, there are no drivers or firmware update to change this.

At this time, we do not have any ink jet printers that will accomplish what you are looking for. This does not mean that our next line of printers won't have this capability. We are constantly changing the design and function of our multifunction line. We do have an imageCLASS line which you may want to consider. These units (depending on model) will duplex prints and utilize toner vs. ink tanks. This would be the closest solution to your needs."


So, again Canon is completely denying that there is anything wrong with the way the printer is working and providing no reason why it doesn't work the way most would expect it to and the way that makes more economical sense for the user. They are completely unwilling to make updates to the driver and firmware to provide functionality you would expect would be there.

Most know that the major profit center for printer companies is the ink. Is anyone else irritated that Canon seems to be gouging us by forcing us to use extra ink?

 

[jtoolman]

My Epson Artisan I believe also behaves like your Canon, but I am refilling so don't really care about the possible extra ink usage. Not really an issue.
Just refill and beat them at their own game.

 

[garne2t]

Good advice jtoolman.

Although putting on my "corporate citizen" hat, I feel like the big bad corporation needs to be held accountable for their profiteering actions at the expense of the layman. Refilling is time consuming, messy, risky, and voids the warrany. (I have had problems with other inks in the past.) Finally, and not least important, Canon's lack of acknowledgement of any problem really irks me.

I have gone back and forth with Canon over a dozen times and have yet to get a response addressing the issue as you'll see below.

Here's my last exchange with CANON.

QUOTE FROM CANON:
"Thank you for replying. I can appreciate the fact that it doesn't make sense to you. However, in my previous email I explained specifically how the PIXMA MX870 is designed to work. I also offered a solution that will accomplish what you are looking for.

Grayscale is simply shades of black. It doesn't matter where the black is coming from (i.e., a composite of color to make black or a separate black ink tank). Your printer will print grayscale. However, the source of your black ink will be composite if you are duplexing. This is how the printer was designed and there are no updates or "fixes" for this."
UNQUOTE

Here's my reply to CANON:

"Dear Rodney (Contact Center Supervisor),

I am very frustrated that you have still not addressed the issue. Yes I understand clearly HOW the printer works today. That is not my question. My question is WHY? I have provided a long list of reasons WHY the printer should not work that way. You have not addressed any of those reasons nor have you provided a reason why it should work using composite black over single ink tank black. "Because it works that way" is not a solution to a problem!

Yes it DOES matter where the black ink comes from as I have detailed several times!
1) Composite ink black costs more than single ink tank black. Yes, customers care about printing costs!
2) Duplex printing cost more than single sided printing as excess ink costs outweigh paper savings.
3) Composite ink has poorer print quality that pigment black ink. Yes we care about print quality!
4) I can NOT print/copy duplex grayscale if I am out of color ink.
5) It is confusing to have the printer print differently for grayscale 1-sided vs. duplex. Nor does it make sense.
6) I should not be FORCED to use composite black and disallowed the used of single tank black for all these reasons!

Manually having to turn the page over and change all sorts of setting to print duplex with black ink is an unacceptable solution. It is very error prone and takes too much time to set up the printer for every print. I bought this printer specifically for B&W duplex printing/copying to save money on paper. A solution to use up my time to make it work is not acceptable. Especially when this problem can be fixed relatively easily.

So, if it doesn't make sense, it should be fixed! Why, why, why are you so resistant to this logic? Please escalate this issue to someone in customer support who cares."

 

[jtoolman]

I do understand your frustation and even agree with all your points but unfortunately I can almost guarantee that you will not get the response you are looking for.

Sorry to hear that you have had good luck when refilling. I have, and so I will continue to refill with fantastic results and laugh right in their faces every time I refill a cart for just pennies. Don't know about your particular canon model but my Pro900 MKII ( totally different I know ) is extremelyeasy to refill and not messy at all to do so. My Epson Artisan is a dream to use and run on 3rd party inks either refilling damper carts or CISS!

They obviously have their reasons for their design and their reason for the way the inks are used during duplexing and it's not gonna change. The fact that your do not agree is basically irrelevant in their view as you have witnessed to date.

I know it's crazy!

 

[jimbo123]

i rarely print/copy in duplex mode but decided to give it a test using MP830, "plain paper", grayscale, printed single and then duplex.

took outside, hosed down and let dry for a few hours

1. single sided print

2. two-sided print(duplex)

sure looks like the duplex print bled heavily indicating CLI8 dye-based inks were used in my duplex printing

J

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Printers: Canon MP830, IP4500, MX700, MX860, MP980
Method: German Durchstich Method
Ink: Hobbicolors ink, PMT-BK, UW8
Misc: Squeeze bottles - so much easier than syringes