Canon MX870 Duplex Ink Usage SCAM!

[garne2t]

My Canon MX870 printer does NOT allow duplex (2-sided) B&W printing or copying. The printer is listed as being able to print duplex and able to print B&W but if you try both, color ink is used. Single sided B&W works fine and only uses black ink.

When printing grayscale in duplex, or copying in B&W duplex, the printer forces the use of color inks to make black. If a color ink is out, you don't get black and can not use duplex. If there is color in the original, it is printed in color even though you asked for B&W. Doesn't this allows Canon to force you to use more ink than you should have to? To print black using color inks, takes Magenta, Cyan, and Yellow ink--up to 3 times the ink? A scam to force you to buy more ink? Seems like it to me!

So, it costs more to print or copy duplex B&W than it does to print single sided and use extra paper. That's because when printing or copying 2-sided (duplex), the printer forces you to use extra ink (3 color inks to get black) and ink is much more expensive than paper. So much for trying to save money on paper by printing duplex.

I contacted Canon customer support about this issue and they tried to tell me the printer had to use color to make black because it dries faster. Doesn't that sound like a bunch of baloney? Is there really a difference in drying time for color (dye based) ink over the B&W pigment ink? If there was, they could simply delay the second side of the print a few seconds to allow the ink to dry. I have never had a problem with ink smear printing single sided B&W. At a minimum, why not print the second side of the page with black ink? (That's what Canon tried to tell me it did. But it does not!) Next they tried to tell me the smaller dye based black ink tank was used for the first side of the page. Wrong again. Color ink is used for both sides of the page.

Doesn't this sound like a scam that allows Canon to gouge us in ink costs? If I select B&W duplex printing, shouldn't it print that way??

 

[stratman]

Not a scam. It's a quality control issue, and one meant to keep the printer as idiot-proof as possible, which results in fewer technical support calls for Canon from perplexed consumers.

Duplex mode uses the dye based inks and blends them to get blacks and shades of gray in order to ensure proper drying time before printing the opposite side of the page. The pigment black ink is not used in duplex mode. Canon did this to prevent smudging of the first printed side and ink transfer onto surfaces that could rub off on subsequent printed pages as they move through the machine.

You can work around this issue by printing one side of each page first and then printing the opposite side of each page - as long as your software allows you to print every other page, such as odd numbered pages first and then even numbered pages next. Use can the Auto Document Feeder feeder for these separate print jobs. In this fashion, you will use pigment black ink on both sides of the paper since you are only printing one side at a time. It may take a while longer but sounds like the results would be more to your liking.

Refilling cartridges on your own with high quality 3rd party inks resolves the issue of high cost OEM inks.

 

[garne2t]

How much faster does dye based ink dry than pigment based ink? This printer is so slow that I can't believe that is really an issue. (The printer is quite a bit slower than the last Canon printer I bought in 2003--the MultiPASS F80.) Like I said, I have never seen the pigment based ink smear on single sided B&W prints--even right after it is printed. It can't be much of a difference in drying time, if any. If there really is a difference in drying time, and it can't be more than a few seconds, they should simply print a little slower and still use the pigment black--like I asked it to do by specifying grayscale. Defaulting the printer to only use composite color inks to print black and not giving me the option to actually print using black, which is what I asked for in the first place, is really not an acceptable solution. That solution forces me to spend more in ink than I save in paper when printing duplex. Doesn't make sense!

At a minimum, Canon could use the black dye based ink tank (BK) instead of the color inks to make black on the first side of the page only. Pigment black should always be used on the second side. That would use much less ink. The first side of the page is the only side that could smear. But I have verified the printer does not do that either. Color ink is used on both sides of the paper to make black. Originals that have color, are printed in color. Not what I asked for. How could behavior different from what I asked for reduce customer support calls? That really makes no sense! I truly believe it is a scam to force us to buy more ink!

In addition, when any paper size other than 8.5x11 is selected, the printer will not allow B&W printing. You can select B&W but it won't print in B&W. Again confusing behavior that forces us to use extra ink. I know their excuse is they "assume" you want to print a photo if you select a different size paper. What if I want to print a B&W photo? I can't do it. If I want to print a color photo, I will specify I want a color photo. Again, when a machine does something different from what you ask for, that will always add confusion and increase support costs.

I have tried after market inks in the past and end up with clogged jets. Is there one in particular you recommend for the Canon MX870?

 

[ghwellsjr]

This is something new, right, stratman, because you reported long ago that the BCI type printers diluted the pigment black ink with magenta and cyan to prevent "show through", as I believe it was called, correct? Do you know when Canon switched what they did for duplex printing?

 

[panos]

When I had contacted Canon over this issue they told me it was to prevent ink from being visible on the other side of the paper which is important for two-sided prints. They are partially correct, low quality thin paper definitely has this problem with the high intensity pigmented black color. Canon's mixture of cyan dye and black (I am not sure if its dye black or pigmented black or both) solves the issue.

However, in my opinion, this method has the following disadvantages:

* It's not necessary when good quality plain paper and good quality ink is used.
* Wastes ink from the more expensive color cartridges and prevents an accurate planning of ink purchases.
* Slows down printing as the fewer dye nozzles drag down speed for the entire document instead of just the colored areas.

For that reason I am using duplexing software (1) (2) since the manual duplex option switches to dyes as well. Of course that doesn't solve the problem of auto duplex copying...

It is strange that Canon now claims drying time to be the reason. The printer could simply adjust the drying time setting for duplex documents and still print much faster by ditching the dye nozzles. And as for smudging, almost everything I print is two-sided and the printer doesn't smudge.

I have tried after market inks in the past and end up with clogged jets. Is there one in particular you recommend for the Canon MX870?

Forum regulars mikling (Canada, US supplier) & websnail (England) run online stores which have build excellent reputations over the years. If it wasn't for aftermarket inks, I would have lost a fortune -- actually I wouldn't have lost a fortune, I would not use inkjet printers at all. Clogs are an issue of the past for most of us since we have streamlined our refilling techniques.

Use this forum to your best advantage, it can help you save a lot.

 

[stratman]

ghwellsjr and panos:

You are both correct. I was wrong. The reason is to prevent bleed through of ink showing on the other side of the page. Must be OldTimers setting in.


garne2t:

Panos' suggestion is for Image Specialists ink. Mikling is based in Canada and sells from eBay. His home page is http://home.eol.ca/~mikling/. There is a link to his eBay page in the upper righthand corner. Websnail is based in England and sells from his own web page at http://www.octoink.co.uk/. Both sell individual bottles and various refill equipment as well as complete refill kits. Websnail has a larger selection of equipment for refilling, such as his SquEasyFill Bottles/Kits and also KMP brand Pigment Black Ink which is highly regarded by the some members of the forum for it's deep black and potential decreased risk of clogging of the print head. I have not tried KMP yet, but have used Image Specialists Pigment Black ink without issue.

Another place to get squeeze bottles with Luer Lock caps to fit Luer Lock needles for refilling is Howard Electronics at http://www.howardelectronics.com/kahnetics/squeezebottles.html. I use the 4 oz Jenson Global bottles and mad labels for each bottle. Websnail's SquEasyFill Bottles are already color coded. Both vendors have needles as well.

You don't have to use squeeze bottles, but they do make refilling easier, faster and potentially cleaner. It is an additional cost but I have not read anyone not liking them over syringes.

I have also used Hobbicolors Pigment Black ink without issue for a year's time, but ghwellsjr believes this ink may increase risk of a clog from his experience and testing. There is NO controversy over Hobbicolors dye-based inks for your printer. Their inks have more of a "pop" on the page which some find pleasant. Do a search on the forum to see photographic examples of the differences in output. Image Specialists ink appears to be a closer match to Canon OEM without profiling printer, paper, and ink. Hobbicolors sells from eBay and can be found at http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=hobbicolors&_armrs=1&_from=R40&_ipg=.

All of these sellers are respected and have good products. Both Mikling and Websnail are superb members of this forum with excellent customer service. There are a handful of other reputable retailers that others on the forum have used and been happy with, which I'll leave for them to tell you about. In general, avoid bulk ink you see at the store or online except for the ones recommended on the forum. Take advantage of others experiences here, good and bad. Whatever it is you encounter, or are considering doing, most likely other forum members have already been there, done that.

 

[lin]

I am not too sure about the newer printer. But the previous printer using CLI-8 & PGI-5BK such as MP500 & IP4200 & IP4500, uses Pigment Black Ink (i.e the PGI-5BK cart if it's filled with Pigment Ink) as long as Plain Paper Mode is selected when printing with Grayscale selected (i.e to print only Black) both front and the duplex page.

stratman,

On the duplex page (with plain paper mode & Grayscale selected), it does not mixed the dye CMKY CLI-8 carts to produce black.

 

[stratman]

Lin:

Thanks for the correction. My first post is a mess.

I have posted in the past about Canon's stated use of CLI-8 and PGI-5 ink in relation to paper/media selection:

PGI-5 Pigment Black Ink is used ONLY For:
- Plain Paper Test (monochrome and grey scale)
- Envelopes
- Transparencies
- Duplex Printing On Plain Paper
- Camera Direct Printing on Plain Paper

CLI-8 Dye-Based Color Inks are used anytime color is printed and is used exclusively for:
- All Photo Paper types (including when Duplex printing)
- High Resolution Paper
- T-shirt Transfers
- CD-R's
- All Borderless Printing, on both PhotoPaper and Plain Paper

There is a suggested workaround for obtaining darker appearing text when Duplex printing on Plain Paper:

1. Set the media type to Hagaki paper instead of plain paper.

2. Set the page size using custom 8.5 x 11 (or 8.5 x 14 if you want to duplex on legal paper). Actually just setting it to letter or legal size does work too.

3. Set the print quality to High resolution (you may also use standard, or custom setting with resolution set to high and halftoning set to diffusion). In my experience, it does not differ that much.

4. When you hit OK, you will be asked to set the correct Hagaki paper size, please ignore that.

5. Go and print it out, you will see that it will duplex print with more crisp and much blacker than if you duplex with plain paper.

 

[The Hat]

lin On the duplex page (with plain paper mode & Grayscale selected), it does not mixed the dye CMKY CLI-8 carts to produce black.

When performing duplex document printing on my two Canon printers they only use yellow, cyan and magenta inks and no others.
The two black inks are reserved for plain paper with text (pigment) while the BK black is used on matte/photo paper.

It has nothing to do with the drying time or the wasting of inks but solely to prevent
the text showing through the opposite side of plain copier paper as stratman mentioned earlier.

If you check a one sided document against a duplex document you will clearly see that the one-sided document is blacker and sharper
(pigment ink only) than the duplex printed document which has lighter and thicker text caused by the dye inks..

 

[lin]

When printing grayscale in duplex, or copying in B&W duplex, the printer forces the use of color inks to make black. If a color ink is out, you don't get black and can not use duplex. If there is color in the original, it is printed in color even though you asked for B&W.
.....

garnet2t, as long any of the ink tank ran out out of ink, the canon printer will ask you to replace the cart (or release the ink monitor if it's still happening for these newer printer), that's the way it is.

Like I said above, for normal process of printing, as long as plain paper mode & Grayscale is selected, it will print with the Pigment Black Cart even on the duplex page.

However, Copy function is a bit different, it may uses Pigment/C/M/Y/K if you want to the output with duplex printing for Grayscale (B&W) on plain paper mode.

The only way to overcome this for the copying function, is by selecting Plain paper mode & Grayscale & on Single Side Paper mode (ie without duplex selection). This will produce B&W using the Pigment Black on the front page. Print odd & Even Page. But if you have selected High Resolution Paper or any other Photo Paper mode, it will uses the CMKY ink for the printing (omitting the Pigment Black Cart).

Irregardless whether your Pigment black cart is full and you merely only wanted black print, the printer just will prompt you if any of your ink has ran out and asking you to replace it, if you want to carry out any job. It's like going through a flow-chart. If there are ink, next task, if not ink, alert no ink.....

Canon printers may added new features for the software (Color adjustment, type paper selection,......etc.) but it doesn't make major changes for the print mode despite releasing new model.

Reason of Editing: Realize this printer has feeder so no need to stand beside the printer to perform copying stack of paper.