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can one make light magenta and ligh cayn by diluting magenta and cyan

Discussion in 'Everything Else InkJet Printer Related' started by foggyjim, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. Mar 18, 2015
    PeterBJ

    PeterBJ Printer Master Platinum Printer Member

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    Here are the results after one week of UV exposure. I attached four A6 prints to the bug zapper, Canon CLI-8 ink on Canon PP101 270 gsm paper and on Sihl glossy 280 gsm paper, and IS ink for CLI-521 on Canon PP101 270 gsm paper and on Sihl glossy 280 gsm paper.

    For the Canon OEM ink an iP4300 was used, for the IS ink an MP540 was used and for the scans an Epson V33 scanner was used. I had to tweak the scanner settings to get a result fairly similar to what I see. The same settings were used for both scans.

    The reason for using A6 format is the size of the bug zapper, so four prints could be attached, two on the front and two on the back :

    Fading test1.jpg

    Here are the results for Canon OEM CLI-8 ink, upper left is Canon ink + Canon paper with no UV exposure, upper right is Canon ink + Canon paper after UV exposure, lower left is Canon ink + Sihl paper with no UV exposure and lower right is Canon ink + Sihl paper after UV exposure:

    Fading test C.jpg

    Here are the results for IS inks for CLI-521, upper left is IS ink + Canon paper with no UV exposure, upper right is IS ink + Canon paper after UV exposure, lower left is IS ink + Sihl paper with no UV exposure and lower right is IS ink + Sihl paper after UV exposure:

    Fading test B.jpg

    It is seen that the fading is more dependent on the ink than on the paper. As expected the winning combination is Canon OEM ink and Canon OEM paper. It looks like the ink that faded the most is IS Cyan 244 on Sihl paper. This is determined by looking at the grey-scales and the B/W image in the middle of the prints. They are shifted towards red, meaning cyan has been weakened.

    I'm glad to see that the bug zapper can be used for fading tests, even if it is a bit slow. I'll re-attach the prints and continue the test. If the fading continues, I'll post the results.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
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  2. Mar 18, 2015
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    No surprise that the IS ink fades faster than canon - but If the OEM ink looks like no fading at all, it's better than I expected...
    I'm curious to see the results after one month!

    I have attached a very quick test of only 3 days
    exposed to another terrarium bulb with more UVb output:
    - DL ink on cheap glossy photo paper (epson r285)
    - 3rd party dye ink on cheap matte inkjet paper (canon CLI-8 compatible)
    You can see a relatively even fading of all colors on the canon print (probably IS ink, but I forgot to record this). DL ink shows almost no fading so far (I am not sure about the color cast..). ..to be continued...

    dye-drylab_inkjetpaper_3tageUVb_ji.jpg
     
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  3. Mar 18, 2015
    PeterBJ

    PeterBJ Printer Master Platinum Printer Member

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    I will keep the test running for at least 3 weeks more with weekly checking the amount of fading. If there is more fading than posted today I will post the new results.

    It seems the new desert lamp with higher UVB content is Ideal for the testing. A UVC lamp might be more efficient, but is also more dangerous, and purchase might be restricted.

    I'm impressed by the fade resistance of the Fuji DL inks. I guess the Fuji Dry Lab printer is a piezoelectric printer, so the inks are suitable for Epson but not for Canon?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  4. Mar 18, 2015
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    As far as I know - yes.
    But I do really like to know what it is that makes an ink suitable for piezo or for bubble jet, which chemical property or ingredient??
    There are so much 3rd party inks on the market, some more or less universal types...what can really happen if you put epson ink in a canon bubble jet? Does somenody ever tried?
    Somewhere I read the difference is the temperature and therefore bubble jet ink has to have a higher boling point ...what appears plausible ... but who knows the actual boling point of an ink, and wether an epson type of ink does or does not match the needs of a bubble jet printhead...?
    BTW I burnt a few canon heads...with canon compatible...was it the boiling point?
     
  5. Mar 18, 2015
    The Hat

    The Hat Printer VIP Moderator

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    When I started out first I used any ink that was available at the time which turned out to be universal ink, but once I found out how bad the ink was I stopped using it, I am now very particular about which ink I use.

    Ignorance was bliss... :hit
     
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  6. Mar 18, 2015
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    While this is a good advice in general, the question remains.
    Was the ink bad in terms of colors or because it damaged the PH..and if the latter - how does it damage the PH, by clogging or because of high temperature? In most cases we wouldn't know...
     
  7. Mar 18, 2015
    jtoolman

    jtoolman Printer Master Platinum Printer Member

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    I have an old 1400 running on a CISS loaded with only OCP GLOP.
    I then use QuadTone Using a custom curve which then tells the printer to print MAX Glop though each of the 6 color channels. Say you want overcoat a 13 x19. You load a black white 13x19 document ( Any Res ) and load the print you want to over coat onto the printer and hit print on QuadToneRip. You can control the amount of GLP per channel by creating curves with values per channel from 1000 to 6000. The higher the value the denser the layers of GLOP per channel. You can actually get a print the comes out "Wet". That is way too much. So you adjust the curve values until you get the results you need.

    Now that if the best and most perfect way to do this and that is how Jon Cone from Inkjetmall does it when they produce B&W images using their Piezograph all black inks.

    You could use a printer which already used glop but I really have clue how you would tell it to only lay down optimizer. Since I have a dedicated printer for that function, I've never ex;pred other alternatives.

    Why do this? A lot of 3rd party inks ( Pigment K3 ) have lot of gloss differential and bronzing problems. Printing GLOP through 6 channels totally and completely solves and eliminates that problem.

    I made a video demonstrating the whole process.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iRUoUwwSlA

    Joe
     
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  8. Mar 18, 2015
    PeterBJ

    PeterBJ Printer Master Platinum Printer Member

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    Thermal print heads as used by Canon, HP and others heat the ink to create a superheated steam bubble that ejects the ink. The ink must therefore be heat resistant and should not leave a deposit on the microscopic nozzle heaters, or the ink should be able to immediately dissolve a such deposit. I read somewhere that Canon OEM inks have superior cleaning properties and so should cause fewer problems than 3rd party inks, but maybe the source of this info was Canon?

    Piezoelectric materials change shape and/or dimensions when a voltage is applied, so a piezoelectric print head ejects ink by a mechanical pumping action and so doesn't heat the ink or heats it very little, so the inks need not be thermally resistant.

    As the two types of print heads are very different, different values for viscosity and surface tension might also be needed for the inks.

    I don't know what role the pH value plays, but it might affect solubility of the dyes and other ingredients of the ink. It might also affect viscosity and surface tension. Proper pH value might also be critical for keeping pigment particles in suspension in pigment inks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
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  9. Mar 20, 2015
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    The fading goes on...

    same samples (fuji DL ink vs 3rd party dye ink) after 6 days under the UVb desert lamp:
    dye-drylab_inkjetpaper_6tageUVb-kl_ji.jpg

    and here is coral dye after 6 days on two different papers
    - 120g inkjet paper vs 230g glossy photo paper
    dye-drylab_inkjetpaper_6tageUVb-kl_ji.jpg
     

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  10. Mar 21, 2015
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    'superheated ' - o.k., there are 2 values important - the boiling point - the temperature at which the solvent evaporates, goes into the gaseous state, and the energy needed to heat a particular amount of liquid to reach this temperature, characteristics which are controlled by the mixture of the solvents . The ph value, and the amount of ions in the ink do something destructive to the heating elements in the ink channels - a voltage is applied across these resistor films, metallic film in direct contact with the liquid. A potential difference in an electrolyte let the ions migrate, and they take something with them - charge with ions from the electrodes - the ends of the resistor film - the classic situation of electrochemical erosion. That is the main reason why such thermal printheads have a limited lifetime depending of the amount of ink passed through. The driving voltage for the ink bubble resistors is 25 volts or something, that's a lot for electrochemical effects . That's an effect you cannot clean away, or repair otherwise as lots of Canon users experience with their printheads after a while.
     
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