Epson ET-8550 Velvet Fine Art Paper settings uses Pigment and Dye Black

ThrillaMozilla

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This is an almost desperate situation for me. I sort of gave up printing years ago because the blacks were blocked up. And now I have a new Epson ET-8550 with lot of Red River Premium Matte 11x17" double-sided for calendars (with lots and lots of pictures). Using my profile or the Red River profile, either way the blacks are blocked up and the shadows are murky.

Now I find out that Jose Rodriguez and others have the same darned problem. Keith Cooper shows a picture made with his wonderful profile that's just ghastly. Someone showed a screen shot of the graphical presentation of the profile for that paper -- I think it was the same paper -- which shows pretty badly blocked shadows. He says it's good paper, and there's nothing really wrong with the profile -- you just can't use that paper for that kind of picture -- and he prints a high-key photo to prove it! I thought a profile is supposed to take care of those problems, and there's no way I would call it a good profile if it doesn't work. I understand that one paper might not print as black as the next one, and I know something about the rendering intent (usually Perceptual) for attempting mitigate the situation. But it's still quite black. I reject the notion that the papers can't reproduce the shadows, and the profile doesn't take care of it. It seems pretty poor to me that even Keith Cooper has to resort to lots of test prints. At some point it's just trial and error.

So is Jose telling us that a profile made with a VFA paper setting gives good results, but the only paper he found that works right is not even intended for inkjet printing?! (Sorry to be a pessimist, but what a miserable situation unless you're using the same paper.)

Now I'll be happy as a clam if I can get superior results without blocking the shadows. I've calibrated the heck out of my already accurate monitor (with an X-Rite i1 Studio), and I've been through the settings check list with a pro. Proofing doesn't even work because it gives a poor representation of the print. It just shows the images as fogged. Until I can get results, I really don't know what I'm doing.

Any suggestions? Do I understand the situation correctly?
 
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bplaman

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Hello.
To see if pigment ink is being used up when printing a photo print, you need to:

- turn on the printer (if it was not turned on)

- download the WicReset utility from the official website of the developer:
https://www.wic.support/download/

- run the WicReset utility

- select the printer in its menu

- press the Status button in the Control menu and write down the pigment ink percentage value

- print a photo print

- press the Status button in the Control menu again and write down the pigment ink percentage value again

IF THESE TWO VALUES ARE DIFFERENT, IT MEANS THAT PIGMENT INK IS USED UP WITH THIS TYPE OF PRINTING.

IF THESE TWO VALUES ARE THE SAME, IT MEANS THAT PIGMENT INK IS NOT USED.
 

thebestcpu

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This is an almost desperate situation for me. I sort of gave up printing years ago because the blacks were blocked up. And now I have a new Epson ET-8550 with lot of Red River Premium Matte 11x17" double-sided for calendars (with lots and lots of pictures). Using my profile or the Red River profile, either way the blacks are blocked up and the shadows are murky.

Now I find out that Jose Rodriguez and others have the same darned problem. Keith Cooper shows a picture made with his wonderful profile that's just ghastly. Someone showed a screen shot of the graphical presentation of the profile for that paper -- I think it was the same paper -- which shows pretty badly blocked shadows. He says it's good paper, and there's nothing really wrong with the profile -- you just can't use that paper for that kind of picture -- and he prints a high-key photo to prove it! I thought a profile is supposed to take care of those problems, and there's no way I would call it a good profile if it doesn't work. I understand that one paper might not print as black as the next one, and I know something about the rendering intent (usually Perceptual) for attempting mitigate the situation. But it's still quite black. I reject the notion that the papers can't reproduce the shadows, and the profile doesn't take care of it. It seems pretty poor to me that even Keith Cooper has to resort to lots of test prints. At some point it's just trial and error.

So is Jose telling us that a profile made with a VFA paper setting gives good results, but the only paper he found that works right is not even intended for inkjet printing?! (Sorry to be a pessimist, but what a miserable situation unless you're using the same paper.)

Now I'll be happy as a clam if I can get superior results without blocking the shadows. I've calibrated the heck out of my already accurate monitor (with an X-Rite i1 Studio), and I've been through the settings check list with a pro. Proofing doesn't even work because it gives a poor representation of the print. It just shows the images as fogged. Until I can get results, I really don't know what I'm doing.

Any suggestions? Do I understand the situation correctly?
Hi @ThrillaMozilla
To solve you particular problem, it might have been better to start a new thread as it might get buried here.
That said, sounds very frustrating and yes with the right settings and profile you should not have that level of a problem.
Since you are likely a expert on this already and way ahead of me, please don't take my comments as too low a level (they are yet you did not give details) yet I will mention all that come to mind that can cause this problem.

- Are you on Mac or PC. If Mac, make sure you are not using their AirPrint driver as opposed to the official Epson driver.
- There is always the potential for conflict between the software controlling the printer or the printer controlling the settings from the front panel. I prefer settings from the software to insure settings stick and are easily visible.
- I know its basic yet do you have Black Point Compensation turned on
- Are you using the version 2 Profile from Red River for this paper. That profile became available in January 2025.
- What media setting are you using. Here is a link from Red River on recommendations for media settings for that paper:
https://www.redrivercatalog.com/download/32-premium-matte-double-sided-recs.pdf

- And lastly are you using perceptual rendering? Let me show you the curves in the Red River ICC profile for relative colorimetric vs perceptual. The almost flat line on relative colorimetric is concerning

Relative Colorimetric:



Screenshot 2025-05-09 at 9.53.28 AM.jpg


Perceptual
Screenshot 2025-05-09 at 9.53.51 AM.jpg


Again excuse the lack of my expertise yet I know sharing details both direction can help forum members help you better in solving your problem.

John Wheeler
 

ThrillaMozilla

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Hello.
To see if pigment ink is being used up when printing a photo print, you need to: ...
Or, for a crude method that can be used anywhere, I would just wet the print. If ink bleeds, it's dye. Then soak it in water to check before and after appearance.
 

ThrillaMozilla

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Hi @ThrillaMozilla
To solve you particular problem, it might have been better to start a new thread as it might get buried here.
Yes, you're right, of course. There's just too, too much to write at the moment.
That said, sounds very frustrating and yes with the right settings and profile you should not have that level of a problem.
Since you are likely a expert on this already and way ahead of me, please don't take my comments as too low a level (they are yet you did not give details) yet I will mention all that come to mind that can cause this problem.
I'm not an expert at digital photo printing. The software is absolutely overwhelming. I gave up on making nice prints myself years ago, and I made my last silver-gelatin print in 1985.
- Are you on Mac or PC. If Mac, make sure you are not using their AirPrint driver as opposed to the official Epson driver.
- There is always the potential for conflict between the software controlling the printer or the printer controlling the settings from the front panel. I prefer settings from the software to insure settings stick and are easily visible.
PC. If only software settings stuck and were comprehensible.
- I know its basic yet do you have Black Point Compensation turned on
- Are you using the version 2 Profile from Red River for this paper. That profile became available in January 2025.
- What media setting are you using. Here is a link from Red River on recommendations for media settings for that paper:
https://www.redrivercatalog.com/download/32-premium-matte-double-sided-recs.pdf

- And lastly are you using perceptual rendering? Let me show you the curves in the Red River ICC profile for relative colorimetric vs perceptual. The almost flat line on relative colorimetric is concerning
Check, check, Perceptual, check, and check.
Relative Colorimetric:



View attachment 17191

Perceptual
View attachment 17192

Again excuse the lack of my expertise yet I know sharing details both direction can help forum members help you better in solving your problem.
Thanks. That's really helpful, more than you can know.

I should actually caution people not to help too much until I can supply much more detail in another thread, as you suggested.
 
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