Problem with first attempt at Hobbicolors - Canon Pixma 4000

[robertrd]

Hey, all.

Recently had a rather discouraging experience with my first attempt at
using Hobbicolors ink.


Background:


I have a second-hand Canon Pixma iP5000, which _had_ a fresh set of OEM
ink.
I also have a *new* iP4000, which is still on its first set of OEM ink.


Prior to the 5000 running dry, I was finding that all print results
between the two models were extremely comparable. I've been using
Epson, Canon and Kingston Glossy Photo paper.


Of the three paper types, I find that Canon paper sucks, as I can see
track marks from the pinwheels in the printer on the surface of the
paper. Kingston is the current preference, because the output is good,
and it's CHEAP.


So:


Swapped in some Hobbicolors ink over the past few days. I noticed
IMMEDIATE and, I dare say, dramatic differences in the output. Colors
do not appear as saturated, and the absorption (?) looks coarser on
close examination.


I grabbed a test image, and printed a Color and a BW printout on both
printers. Settings are all the same (Glossy Photo paper, taken from the
Cassette, with high quality - borderless).


I've tried to make this as 'clean' a comparison as possible, ruling out
all extraneous variables. One thing I have _not_ done is a straight
swap, putting the Hobbicolors in the 4000.


For what it's worth, I just did one more print with Canon paper (all
out of the Epson), and the results are the same as with the Kirkland.
So it would seem that in the context of Hobbicolors ink, Canon /
Kirkland paper is not a significant variable. There does appear to be
slightly less banding in the printout, but as far as the color
representation and 'graininess', it's the same.


ALSO: prior to running this test, I did at least 8 full page prints on
the new ink. That should satisfy any 'flushing' requirements for the
changeover from OEM to aftermarket.


Anyway.


The results can be seen in this zip file (it's about 1.2MB):


http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/printtests.zip


I also included the source file I printed from.


TEST 1: Color
Printer: Canon Pixma IP4000 (new)
Paper: Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper
Ink: OEM


TEST2: Color
Printer: Canon Pixma IP5000 (used)
Paper: Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper
Ink: Hobbicolors


TEST3: Greyscale
Printer: Canon Pixma IP4000 (new)
Paper: Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper
Ink: OEM


TEST4: Greyscale
Printer: Canon Pixma IP5000 (used)
Paper: Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper
Ink: Hobbicolors


Observations:
-Colors in Hobbicolors print are less saturated.
-Absorption looks grainier on close examination
-GREYS LOOK GREEN!!!!!! WTF?!


I'd appreciate any comments.


BD

 

[mikling]

You have microbubbles in your ink. That is causing the coarseness. Let me guess you just used a syringe?

As to the colors, grey looks green because of the color balance of the colors. Reminds me of some ink that came with a cheap Chinese CIS I got from Ebay. What is the source of Hobbicolors ink? Anybody know? Also make some other prints that output pure colors so you can tell if any colors are missing and causing the spectral shift.

 

[robertrd]

I used a syringe, as per the documented instructions.... I gather there's a better way?

 

[mikling]

Yes there is since the instructions are flawed to a certain extent.

Now let's think about this..... as the ink gets used up in a cartridge the ink level in the sponge slowly drops. As the ink level drops, the upper part of the sponge dries out BUT it never completely dries out. Ever try wiping up ink? it's not as easy to wipe off as water right? Well this same surface tension, visocisty gets higher on the ink that is left or dried up on the sponge.

Now when you think of a sponge, you'll notice it has millions of tiny pores to "hold" the ink through surafce tension cappillary action, right. When these pores release the ink, quite often little bubbles get trapped in the extremely tiny crevices in the sponge. You still with me?

Now these are microbubbles initially and as the ink viscosity is normal these can be very tiny. As the ink continues to dry out, the ink gets more viscous and the bubble gets "encrusted" with a viscous ink shell in a tiny corner of the sponge (not really visible to the naked eye)

As the cartridge gets used up some of these bubbles may drift down with the ink or some may get lodged in millions of corners of the sponge. Then the cartridge empties... that is the point where capillary action in the sponge draws the ink UP is balanced by gravity that pulls the ink down. But there is still some ink there.

Now you refill with new ink. Well guess what? those bubbles are still there and they are encrusted by thick partially dried ink. The new ink you introduce dilutes the old ink and some bubbles are released. These bubbles, though released are still in the sponge.

These bubbles get into your print head as the ink is drawn into the head through use. The result of this is uneven spotty and minor banding during printing. Now why this becomes more "serious" a problem today as opposed to years ago is that the heads now thow out as low as 2 picoliter droplets. Ever wonder how small that is? Well all you need are bubbles that small to cause problems. Bubbles that small cannot really be seen by the naked eye... at least mine.

I'm surprised you're already getting problems with your first refill, I'd have expected some maybe in your 3rd or more.

Each time you refill, the problems gets worse as the bubbles accumulate and some cojoin.

Now that you see what's happening, now you'll understand why so many people report that each time they refill, they can only get less ink in. Why so many HP cartridges keep accepting less ink. Why the reputation of refilled/remanufactured cartridges are associated with poor print quality like you're experiencing, short life... in that they supposed run out quickly.... the ink is there but the bubbles hit the heads making them seem like an empty cartridge.

In the old days when Epson used to use sponges, refilling through the bottom got around this a bit in that the new ink would push the "foam" up the cartridge until after two or three times, you could hardly get sufficient ink in there to worth your while as the foam quickly came through the vent on refill.

The use of inks with the wrong viscosity can make this worse since the average pore size is actually PRECISION matched to the viscosity of the ink which is also matched to the inkhead nozzle size to get precise firing action.

How to get around this? The brute force way is to replace the sponge with an IDENTICAL one from the factory. This is not possible. Forget generic sponges. You can try washing out the sponge drying it and rescuing it as practiced by some remanufacturers. Too invasive for the home refiller.

The final way is to refill the cartridge under a heavy vacuum with a proper refill release algorithm that accomodates the dilution of the ink, release of the bubbles, bursting of them and proper rehydration of the heads if you have them.

What is amazing is that I see refill machines that for example refill though the head like the method of the OLD epsons with the same eventual problems. I also see refill machines made by mfrs that copy another one but they don't understand the details of what's happening. Further, these machines cost as much as $5000US!!!!

But to answer your question, yes there is for the home refiller. Email me.

 

[jackson]

@mikling
I find it odd that robertrd's first use of Hobbicolors ink runs into this bubble problem off the bat, especially since we are talking multiple, unused, tanks (Hobbicolors supply virgin carts with their ink).
I use the same printer with Hobbicolors, perhaps on their third fill, and I can't say I have run into this problem...using the syringe method.
I do think that Hobbicolrs ink has a definite 'olive' cast on certain paper, but I suspect that the proper profile would take care of that.

 

[mikling]

Yes, I'm surprised that this has occurred on the first ttry as well. But you can see the distinct banding upon close inspection. The refillable sponge has undeniable drawback and design fault. THE BEST CARTRIDGE IMO is the Original EPSON ones. Toatlly refillable in less than two minutes the first try. One minute the second time and thereafter. Fits perfectly and has NOTHING of these microbubbles to contend with and NO sponge to break down. Their complex siphon system and total seal upon removal is excellent. Thankfully hardly anyone knows the secret or Epson will change the design.

As to the spectral balance I think the shift is too much. Something is wrong with the formulation or they are using the wrong formulation for that particular printer model/cartridge. Yes, you can correct with a new profile BUT 99% of users don't and don't know how. They should try to match OEM profiles better. To me that is unacceptable.... for me Hobbicolors=X.

 

[hpnetserver]

Refillable sponge design fault? I have used Hobbicolors refillable cartridges for about two years. I am still using them as of today. I use syringe and I have no problems. I believe 99.99% of the people who refill their cartridges don't have and don't use a $5000 machine to refill. I don't know what Rebert's problem is but mikling's post is equally puzzling.

Dyes are soluble to water. Whenever a partially emptied and maybe somewhat dried sponge is refilled with the same ink what's left in the sponge is emerged and resolved with new ink again. If the ink is pigment based it would be a different matter. But for dye based the fact says it all. I have yet to see a Hobbicolors refillable cartridge showing the sponge design flaw mikling is talking about.

I bought my ip8500 before Christmas in 2004. Purchased a refill kit on eBay from Hobbicolors. Purchased a 2nd kit within a year again. Then ink only later on. The refillable cartridges are working perfectly and colors are as good as day one. I do not think I am just being lucky. These cartridges are very reliable. I had my 8500 idle for more than a month recently. When I powered it up again I rushed to run a nozzle check. It was simply flawless and beautiful. Printed a few photos. Not a tiny bit of banding visible.

 

[mikling]

I did not state that dye based ink is not water soluble. To the contrary I stated when refilled the old thick ink reconstitutes and is diluted by the new ink thus its' solubility. Even though ink is water soluble it's viscosity will increase with drying. Ink is also not just dye and water but there are also other chemicals in there to adjust surface tension and drying time etc.

Maybe the practice of refilling quite a bit before empty is the safety line to keep you safe from this issue. This way you keep the microbubbles at the top always.

Also has anyone stopped to think that maybe there is a bad batch of ink as I also stated as to the probability as well.

Sponges DO have air entrapment issues. It's well known. A contaminated sponge with certain chemicals can also cause surface tension issues on the sponges causing bubbles to form. There are a whole host of variables. BUT refilling with a syringe does not eliminate microbubbles. I'm sure if an OEM cartridge is put back on and a couple of head flushes are done, the banding dissapears.

I also have assumed that the user has checked that venting passageways are clear and working?

And NO you don't need to spend $5000. But something as inexpensive as this is also workable. http://www.inkjetsaver.com/prounits.html
Even this on the top left corner of this very page will take you to a solution.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/docs/inkrefill.php
would suggest a solution if you run into a microbubble problem.

Finally go here http://users.adelphia.net/~inkprocessusa/articles.html

do the reading for free and see if you can shoot down the author's claims. I think you'll be unable to. I have proven the techniques to myself as I built my own machine with these principles and hot dang! he's right on the money.

 

[hpnetserver]

If a cartridge needs external pressure or vacuum to refill (not for a reason of speeding the refill process) the ink or the cartridge is not very refillable in my opinion. No, there are not a host of variables in refilling sponged ink cartridges, Canon BCI-6 and compatibles in particular. Ink viscosity and the right sponge with correct density and capillary charcteristics are a few main variables. There is no need of any of the equipments you mentioned to refill sponged cartridges especially Canon BCI-6 and compatibles. Tons of Canon OEM BCI-6 have been refilled by people and there are very few reports of problems. I do not shoot down people's ideas but there is really nothing wrong to refill a cartridge using a syringe.

 

[hpnetserver]

Forgot to mention, I almsot always refill only when my cartridges are empty. There is nothing wrong with that either. Never had a problem. Despite there are reports by people of the opposite I simply have no problem. I am not talking about once or twice. I have refilled so many times that I simply lost the count.