Printing to Arches Watercolour paper - Epson 3880

mikling

Printer VIP
Platinum Printer Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
1,471
Points
313
Location
Toronto, Canada
It isn't that the CM cannot read the colors, but more likely that the read in color is too different from what it is expecting or does not fit into the algorithm it is expecting.

What I think I am seeing is what we call ink pooling. This gives a mottled effect. To fix ink pooling, you need to slow the printer down. This is accomplished in the driver under drying time... in the same pane as the ink density adjustment actually, increase dry time between head passes. Yes, Xrite claim that the third party ink is the cause is partially correct as Epson ink rarely has this issue...but it does still at times or else that driver feature would not be there. However, Xrite does not suggest a fix.
These settings are there for paper ink combinations for a reason. Without slowing the printer down to give a perfectly even color, the CM will read the ink pool patches and will get too much variance and will reject the reading as a misread. As you pass the colormunki across, it scans perhaps 100-200 times per second. So if you pass the CM over a color in one second, it takes multiple reading. Each reading or scan is noted. If it notes a read in - color that varies too much, it will reject the reading thinking that there is user error.
Ink pooling is not necessarily "bad" ink but a combination of factors including the paper. Most folks have never played with the ink density and dry time. Here is your chance and BTW, that is one of the more advanced steps to improve ICC profiles.

Also within the software there is some provision for variations of the colors read in. Within Argyll, this is controllable, on CM consumer software it is fixed. The solution is then not really to widen the variation accepted but eliminate the printed variation due to pooling. Slow the printer down or reduce ink density to minimize pooling. Reducing density too much will also bring its own problems if you don't know what is happening. So slow increase dry time. How much? it can vary with the paper batch and humidity, but you'll soon find out by trial and error.
 
Last edited:

3dogs

Printer Master
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
1,013
Reaction score
996
Points
263
Location
Fern Hill, Australia
Printer Model
Epson 3880. Canon Pro 9000,
It isn't that the CM cannot read the colors, but more likely that the read in color is too different from what it is expecting or does not fit into the algorithm it is expecting.

What I think I am seeing is what we call ink pooling. This gives a mottled effect. To fix ink pooling, you need to slow the printer down. This is accomplished in the driver under drying time... in the same pane as the ink density adjustment actually, increase dry time between head passes. Yes, Xrite claim that the third party ink is the cause is partially correct as Epson ink rarely has this issue...but it does still at times or else that driver feature would not be there. However, Xrite does not suggest a fix.
These settings are there for paper ink combinations for a reason. Without slowing the printer down to give a perfectly even color, the CM will read the ink pool patches and will get too much variance and will reject the reading as a misread. As you pass the colormunki across, it scans perhaps 100-200 times per second. So if you pass the CM over a color in one second, it takes multiple reading. Each reading or scan is noted. If it notes a read in - color that varies too much, it will reject the reading thinking that there is user error.
Ink pooling is not necessarily "bad" ink but a combination of factors including the paper. Most folks have never played with the ink density and dry time. Here is your chance and BTW, that is one of the more advanced steps to improve ICC profiles.

Also within the software there is some provision for variations of the colors read in. Within Argyll, this is controllable, on CM consumer software it is fixed. The solution is then not really to widen the variation accepted but eliminate the printed variation due to pooling. Slow the printer down or reduce ink density to minimize pooling. Reducing density too much will also bring its own problems if you don't know what is happening. So slow increase dry time. How much? it can vary with the paper batch and humidity, but you'll soon find out by trial and error.

Thanks for that information Mike,

is very timely input as I was getting frustrated with the device. I am still going to send it back, and I am NOT looking forward to the lecture from DES in not using OEM ink. Interesting that you say OEM is NOT so prone to this problem, but in my case irrelevant as I use your ink on the 9000 Pro Canon and Cone in the Epson 3880. Your information helps explain why it is that my Munki has been so tempramental.
I am a bit chuffed that I started the process of experimentation with ink volume, drying time and feed rate on my own. Your confirmation and pointer to the possible causes puts me on very much firmer ground - THANKS;)

On another topic related to Mike. A year ago I bought a Kit to Refill my Canon 9000Pro printer. Last week I got around to actually starting the process and following the enclosed instructions (BLINDLY, and without actually looking at the cart in my hand) attempted to remove the "ball". All I did achieve was to trash a perfectly good green cart.
So this is by way of a public :thumbsup to Mike for his excellent after sales CUSTOMER SUPPORT. Good product GREAT support!

100% "GREAT CUSTOMER CARE MIKE" :clap:clap:clap:clap:clap
 

RogerB

Print Addict
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
293
Reaction score
315
Points
183
Location
S.E. England
Printer Model
Epson Pro3880
I sometimes see this kind of problem when reading charts with my i1Pro and it's usually because two adjacent patches are too close in colour. (Colour differences can vary a lot between different printers/inks/papers.) If the colour difference is too small the software doesn't recognise the separation between the patches. I get around this by inserting a spacer between the offending patches. If they are light colours I use a black marker pen, and for dark colours a thin strip cut from a white self-adhesive label. The spacer just gives the software a little indication that there is a patch boundary and it doesn't affect the accuracy of the readings.

Might be worth trying a black spacer between similar colour patches on your chart. Like this:-
spacer.jpg
 

3dogs

Printer Master
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
1,013
Reaction score
996
Points
263
Location
Fern Hill, Australia
Printer Model
Epson 3880. Canon Pro 9000,
I sometimes see this kind of problem when reading charts with my i1Pro and it's usually because two adjacent patches are too close in colour. (Colour differences can vary a lot between different printers/inks/papers.) If the colour difference is too small the software doesn't recognise the separation between the patches. I get around this by inserting a spacer between the offending patches. If they are light colours I use a black marker pen, and for dark colours a thin strip cut from a white self-adhesive label. The spacer just gives the software a little indication that there is a patch boundary and it doesn't affect the accuracy of the readings.

Might be worth trying a black spacer between similar colour patches on your chart. Like this:-
View attachment 1393

TOOO GOOOD! really like that, makes sense to me :hide I am off to try it.

On further development of adjusting Custom settings on the 3880 I made two Presets that are giving me very pleasing results with my plain paper iGe3
1) Ink Density -10
2) drying time per pass -25
3) Paper feed rate -30
That got me good saturation so I tried

1) -5, 2) -10, 3) -20
This I saved as a preset as it was delivering a nearly 'dry' print

Today after a bit of 'soak' time on the ice of settings I tried this

1) -2, 2) -5, 3) -10
And this is better still also saved as a Preset as on the standard Test print image setting 5,10,20 gives red a saturation boost, whereas 2,5,10 delivers a 'dry print too but winds back the red and allows orange and yellow to step forward.

Gee its taken me a while to venture into this are but it really is making my prints a LOT better to my eye.

Added:

I just printed the Argylle profile print (made for a Canon 9000 and a paper I can't get here) but I downloaded the Colour Test Patches into a file "Test prints", thought I would try printing it out on my printer with my profiles and one of my new Presets.....:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

Cheers,

Andrew
 
Last edited:

3dogs

Printer Master
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
1,013
Reaction score
996
Points
263
Location
Fern Hill, Australia
Printer Model
Epson 3880. Canon Pro 9000,
I sometimes see this kind of problem when reading charts with my i1Pro and it's usually because two adjacent patches are too close in colour. (Colour differences can vary a lot between different printers/inks/papers.) If the colour difference is too small the software doesn't recognise the separation between the patches. I get around this by inserting a spacer between the offending patches. If they are light colours I use a black marker pen, and for dark colours a thin strip cut from a white self-adhesive label. The spacer just gives the software a little indication that there is a patch boundary and it doesn't affect the accuracy of the readings.

Might be worth trying a black spacer between similar colour patches on your chart. Like this:-
View attachment 1393

Finally go the Munki out and tried the black marker between (first) similar colours, then ALL patches in column 5..
Still no luck with the old patches.
THEN.........
Re read Mikes input on pooling so I tried

+5 on ink density
MAXIMUM dry time between
and -50 out of a possible 70 (what evers)

AND

Bloody BINGO:weee:weee:thumbsup:thumbsup:bow:bow:bow:bow:bow

Between Mike and RogerB two brand NEW GOLD STAR Genii I now have a Watercolour profile:ep:ep:ep:ep:ep

thanks:bow thanks:bow thanks:hugs thanks:ya

You will be right if you are thinking I am a bit grateful.

BIG Cheers
 
Last edited:
Top