No Color Management is no more for making a print profile?

[W. Fisher]

Just to make sure we are clear, the settings from the FAQ that are being discussed are only for creating the color profiles and not the settings for regular prints. Here is an explanation from online that seemed to help and made sense yet its from AI so your mileage may vary. Since it mentions its trying to workaround a driver bug, you should check to see if the bug has been already corrected:

What's the Best Practice on Windows 11?​

If you're using an Epson printer, here's what to do:

A. In ccStudio​

• Select to print the test chart using “Let application manage color” (or whatever option disables color management from the printer driver).

B. In the Epson Driver (Windows)​

When you hit "Print Settings" or "Properties" in the print dialog:

• Set Media Type correctly.
• Set Quality appropriately (e.g., Highest or Photo RPM).
• Go to the Color taband:
  • Try “No Color Adjustment” first (ideal, if it works cleanly).
  • If “No Color Adjustment” causes problems (like banding), then:
    • Select “Color Controls”
    • Choose sRGB
    • Set Gamma = 2.2

This workaround (Color Controls + sRGB + Gamma 2.2) has been widely tested and is known to yield neutral output when the printer can’t be forced to truly turn off its own color tweaks.

The above made more sense to me that what was written in the FAQ
John Wheeler

Thanks for that info. I tried it today.

I found that doing it either with the "Let application manage color" or it being turned to OFF made no difference in the subsequent profile than one made using the "Epson (sRGB)" as the color control to make the profile. Both came out looking the same, i.e. too dark, especially the blues.

I found a ColorChecker image file in the Windows x-rite folder along with one of their larger ColorChecker SG cards. I used those as a standard test image to eliminate any input images from me. I hope they are close to a standard to use for a test image.

On the smaller 24 patch ColorChecker, the three diagonal blue patches on the left side show the lower blue patch to be almost black in color (Position A3 I think). It may have a blue tint to it, but may as well call it black.



Below I laid a small ColorChecker card over the print of a ColorChecker 24 patch and larger ColorChecker SG card taken with a Canon camera and made into a JPG in PS. You can see in the under lying print made with the ccStudio profile that the dark blue patch (A3) is far darker than the smaller CC card on top of them I circled them in red. The larger SG card blue patches are underneath, but the dark blue on is still far too dark as is the overall colors in the SG card. The sg card has some slight glare on it too near the bottom but it shows the overall darkness of the profile and muted colors.

I don't know if Windows 11 is causing this, some Epson thing since they do not show a driver only in their Support for the 3880 and just a bunch of network stuff so I used the Windows 10 driver. I did try the 3800 items off their page to start, but they weren't any better and I wanted just a plain generic printer driver so I switched to the Windows 10 version and deleted all the other Epson Windows 11 stuff. Not much difference made there either.

Here is one with the "Let printer manage colors" which seems somewhat close but still a bit dark. Blue is much closer than the profile made one.

Mystery....

 

[W. Fisher]

This is maddening! No matter what I do the thing prints dark. Tried to print with Capture One and the print was dark and lacked color which was a new one verse PS. Then I tried the old Adobe Print Utility and it printed dark as well. Turning OFF in the printer driver preference also prints dark. Sometimes "Let the printer manage color" is better - sometimes. Making a profile is pointless using it.

Someplace in the Windows 11 food chain something is controlling the printing outcome over the software for the printing. Don't know if Epson driver is always present in printing being on or off, but something isn't right.

Wasted 3 boxes of $50 each Epson papers, both the glossy and luster, and cannot get a decent print. Most frustrating! Basically a $5K top-of-the-line laptop (Has the newest Nvidia 5090 GPU card too.) and is worthless for printing other than B&W. Don't know if it might be the 1000 nit screen as the brightness is high, but it sets itself down to 80 cd/m2 during the profiling so shouldn't affect that, but who knows. Stumped x-rite's support guy on Team Viewer too.

 

[thebestcpu]

Can you link the ICC profile so it can be examined by forum members?
John Wheeler

 

[thebestcpu]

Hi @W. Fisher

Here is some additional information.

I took your two images and plotted there Lab 3D gamut images shown below.

The first is for the problem image that you labeled messy:

And this one is Let Printer Manage Colors:

Very similar except the offset from black. That is an L offset of about ~15.

Any chance you did not turn on Black Point Compensation "BPE"

BPE needs to be off when creating the color targets yet it needs to be on when printing images.

The images above have all the hallmarks of BPE being off, leaving darker colors looking very muddy.

Of course, this may just be the difference in how you took the picture of the messy version as that seems to be a camera shot.


John Wheeler

 

[W. Fisher]

BPE hs been on for most of the time, and it is checked to being on in QImage Ultimate. I don't recall the BPE being used in ccStudio during the profile making stage. Will need to look. Been wondering about turning it off as it must play into the profiles or the prints somehow - and maybe not for the good either.

I was wondering whether or not to leave the "Let the app control..." (??)) checkbox that is shown when launching a profile color patch print in ccStudio. I've been playing with leaving "Epson( sRGB)" being selected in the print making part, too. and ignore the color switch to OFF and not much differenc eebetween the two being OFF or using the Epson (sRGB) for the profile. I did ifnd Windows 11 has a lot of other settings buried in it to let the app control the print, etc. Might be somehting there,

I have noted that when I set it to Landscape from the print app screen, the Epson driver settings/preferences may show it as still being in Portrait and not Landscape. Need to do it in both places.

If I make an Optimized prfile in ccStudi and use the ColroChecker 24 as the patch set, adn set it to make 24 patches in the app, the color printed page appears to show all of those colors somewhat close. However, once the Optimized icc is made, the print using it of the ColorChecker 24 comes out very dark, espcially the Green and Blue patches which are almsot black

I used some profile from last April prior to getting the new laptop and Windows 11 and it printed out a fine color patch of the ColorChecker 24. Since then nothing has been right unless I leave it set to "Let printer manage colors." An icc profile goes to dark, especially the greens and the blues.

Online I've been reading about other Windows 11 users having color printing issues. Might be similar to the old Mac color management matters a few years back - if they have ever straightened that mess out.

Just got back from buying 4th box of 50 sheets Epson Ultra Premium Glossy (I've been setting the Epson Preferences to Glossy and not Luster as that is the default in Preferences. So far, not one usable profile - unless I use one icc dated last April prior to this mess and it is pretty good on reproducing the ColorChecker colors. Fwiw, when I used the Epson Legacy pack of profiles their Glossy came out too light, while mine are way too dark. Bizarre!

 

[W. Fisher]

Dragged the old Windows 10 laptop out and made a few profiles with it. Better success. I did notice that the ccStudio software in Windows 10 beeps at the beginning and end of a scan of the patches, while in Windows 11 it may beep sometimes, but often not. Something wrong there.
Also, in Windows 10 I could set the Epson Preferences to Preview and it would open a window showing me the print prior to printing it. In Windows 11, it says "Not available." Odd.

Anyway the image below shows what I got using a new x-rite i1PhotoPro 3 basic setup to make a profile in Windows 11. Epson Ultra Glossy used for all as is the same printer.

The i1PhotoPro 3 takes three sheets and one for the OBC too, plus it overly slow in operation to use so I opted for the older ColorMunki Photo and ccStudio as it uses less paper and is faster overall. The outcome may not be as be good as the i1PhotoPro 3 (When it works!), but it was so far off I didn't care as the green patch at B3 is almost black and no hint of green.

Below, I moved to the Windows 10 laptop and it got a bit better, but I was using the calibrite's FAQ idea of using the Epson (sRGB) and not "No Color Management" for making the profile. Lost my greens and blues to blackness still, but better than the i1Pro 3 as it was showing more color.

Next was try the old "Use no color management" for the profile as I have done in the past on Windows 10. That seems to work better for the colors in the ColorChecker 24 color test image I was using below. Least the green came back.

Above, the image on top of the pairs is an Optimized Image run in ccStudio off the ColorChecker card alone in 24 colors. The one on the right is off the Windows 11 laptop using the profile I made off the Windows 10 laptop and copied into it. Least they are somewhat alike now. What a hassle!

As to the outcome, seems it is best for me to make the profiles in Windows 10, and then copy them into Windows 11. and make an Optimized one too while in Windows 10 after restarting the system to access the profiles.

There may be something askew in Windows 11 or the software that is used. I think, from x-rites support in their two hour Team Viewer back-and-forth, they do need to do some work on the software for 11. I know when I use their i1Profiler software the color patches have two sets of lettering on top of each other: One for the file and their copyright info, and the other the row letters. I didn't see that in the ccStudio software as the patch layout is different. Could be it is not yet optimized for 4K screens too.

 

[thebestcpu]

HI @W. Fisher
Glad you are the track to get it fixed. I use a Mac OS so could not be very helpful.
Just for grins, I asked AI what was up with color mangement in Windows 11 being so off sometimes and here is what it came up with below.
Note one of the last solutions was exactly what you did was to do the color management work on Windows 10. This does not speak well of Microsoft in regards to looking after this sement of the market place:

How color management works under Windows​

• Windows has a system-wide color management engine (ICM — Image Color Management).
• Applications can either:
  • Let Windows handle it (using system profiles and rendering intents),
  • Or do their own (via a color-managed workflow that bypasses system settings).

Profiling and calibration tools often need NO system color management during chart printing to ensure raw RGB values are sent.

---

What changes with Windows 11​

• Windows 11 reorganized some printer drivers, default print dialogs, and “Color Controls” options — especially if using the new Universal Print Class Drivers or generic WSD protocol.
• Many printer drivers default to “smart” auto color tweaks now, which interfere with target charts.
• Some older ICC creation tools rely on classic print driver dialogs which are harder to reach in Win 11.

---

Common causes of bad results​

Wrong printer driver:
Windows 11 may auto-install a “Microsoft IPP Class Driver” or “Universal Print Driver” instead of the manufacturer’s full driver.
These stripped-down drivers often ignore or hide the “No Color Management” option.


Print dialog is different:
Some software uses Windows’ new “Modern Print Dialog” which has fewer advanced settings, so you can’t disable adjustments properly.


Default printer settings changed:
Some tools rely on default driver settings that reset when the OS upgrades.

---

How to fix it​

Check your printer driver:

• Go to Settings → Bluetooth & devices → Printers & scanners
• Click your printer → Printer Properties → see what driver is listed.
• If you see “Microsoft IPP Class Driver” or “Universal Print Driver”, uninstall it.
• Download and install the full original driver from the manufacturer’s website.
  Example: Epson P-series, Canon Pro series, etc.

Use the classic print dialog:

• Some color software lets you choose “Printer Preferences” or “Printer Properties” instead of using Windows’ simplified dialog. Always do so.
• Some apps have a “Use legacy print dialog” checkbox.

Double-check color controls:

• Open the driver’s advanced settings — ensure:
  • Color Mode = Off (or “No Color Adjustment”, or “None”)
  • Paper Type = correct match for target
  • Quality = high, no auto enhancement

Consider printing from the profiling software directly:
For example, with X-Rite i1Profiler or ccStudio, print through the app, not via an external app (like Photoshop) unless you know how to disable color management there too.


One test:
Print a neutral test image and verify the RGB values with a color picker after scanning — if they’re off, color management is leaking in.

---

If all else fails​

• Some people use a dedicated print driver queue for profiling: e.g. a “Profiling Only” printer install with color controls off.
• Or roll back to Windows 10 on a spare machine for profiling work (seriously, some pros do this because it’s bulletproof).

John Wheeler

 

[W. Fisher]

OMG!

Thanks for that John!

Guess I finally got to the end about using Windows 10 and not using Windows 11 for profile making. Least I can install the ICC profiles made in Windows 10 and they seem to work in Windows 11 - for now. I guess there may be some gremlin hiding in the stream that fouls up the profile making part someplace. Baffles me as to where it is happening.

Odd when it makes the Optimizer test sheet of the 24 colors in the ColorChecker chart they appear as they should be in the page to be scanned, or least close enough. Least the greens and blues are shown. But when you go to use the profile it makes, and call it up when printing, then things go nuts.

So Apple screwed up their color management years ago, and now it's Windows turn. Some improvement! I wonder if the computers that could be updated to Windows 11 will have the same issue? I had to buy this new $5K MSI one as my older laptop refused to take Windows 11 as its ten-year old hardware was incapable of running it for some reason. I think it was running Windows 8 prior to loading 10 into it, but it's been a workhorse for a decade.

This new Windows 11 one isn't giving me the warm fuzzies even if has all the new Nvidia 5090 card stuff and AI stuff in it (That AI stuff may be the cause of some of this profiling mess.). Bad part is the thing draws over 500 watts, or about twice what the older one did, and the fans do get a bit loud a times when its being taxed out. Some of the Nvidia 5090 cards are melting their power connections too in the PC case versions. Ouch! Newest ain't always the greatest.

 

[pharmacist]

One moment: did you install the proprietary Epson/Canon drivers ? Windows 11 tends to install its own windows drivers that will mess up color management. I have no problem at all with my profiles, but I use the proprietary Windows 11 Epson drivers and removed all the automatically installed printer drivers by Wiindows 11. The same problem exists with Apple that tends to prioritise its own Airprint drivers causing color management havoc.