My Canon PRO-10 on refill ink - and what happened to my PRO-9500II

[palombian]

As feared a report about my experiences.
My goal is not perfection, but fun with printing without worrying about the cost (the main reason why most people abandon and sell these nice printers to us refillers )

As advised by Jose Rodriguez I started printing the Printer Evaluation Image (the one with the strawberries) with the remaining OEM ink on Canon Photo Paper Plus Glossy II in high quality.
I made then a profile (ColorMunki Photo with i1Studio software) for the ALDI 300g glossy paper, IMO a close match in gamut and surface (12c/page versus 48c, it makes no sense spoiling the gains on ink to expensive paper) and printed the image.
I could not discern much difference between the 2 images.

I then replaced the OEM Color Optimiser by the one I bought from Precision Colors for the PRO-10 (to overspray PRO-9500II prints) and printed the same images again.
This time the ALDI paper had a tad less gloss, but really difficult to see.

As a last step I replaced the 9 remaining carts by the inkset sold by Octoinkjet.co.uk (with the regular PBK and R), profiled for the ALDI paper and printed the Evaluation Image.
I was surprised to see nearly no differences in the red strawberries, all other colours were the same, only dark blue was less. Nevertheless the OEM gamut is wider.
The most striking difference was the much less deep black.
But I had no adherence problems (as Octoinkjet warned) on the ALDI glossy paper.

At the end I compared the last image with one printed with the PRO-9500II and the Precision Colors enhanced inkset I use since years with great satisfaction.

The PRO-10 image has blacker black, the red is visibly deeper, yellow is a bit punchier but dark blue is better on the 9500. Also a bit further in the green, but this has been dropped for CO.
No more gloss difference, wich was most annoying in the reds and peoples eyes (making them looking blind at certain viewing angles).

I agree that for practical reasons I compare apples with oranges, but I am satisfied with the results and pleasantly surprised by the Octoinkjet PRO-10 inkset.

Since I have said A by buying the PRO-10 I think I must say B and buy a better black.
I still have a full OEM PBK.
Other options are the enhanced PBK from Octoinkjet or the one from Precision Colors.

I still don't know if Octoinkjet's CO is as glossy.

Attached the gamut of the ALDI paper with PRO-10 OEM (image 1) and a comparision between the PRO-10 and the PRO-9500 with the 3th party sets discussed (image 2: PRO-10 less opacity).

The depth of the blacks seems not to be visible on the gamut, if an expert can give me some clues how to measure this ?

 

[Artur5]

By regular PBK and R, do you mean what Octoinkjet sells as ‘enhanced’ Photo Black and Red ?. In fact, I believe that those are OEM Canon inks. I use OEM Red but all the others (including PBK) are the normal/cheap inks from Octoinket. According to them, some glossy papers might be problematic with normal PBK (bad adherence, poor resistance to rubbing.. ) but I tried Canon Platinum and no problems. As I had only a few sheets of Platinum (the samples which came with the printer) I couldn’t try extensively though.

Would be much to ask that you hang on a wall one of these Aldi prints and, after a few weeks, compare with another identical print kept in the dark ?
I did so with two prints made with Pro10 Octoinkjet inks and Epson luster paper. No visible changes between the exposed print and the one kept in a box.
It will be interesting to know if this Aldi paper behaves significantly better in the long term with third party pigment ink than other cheap papers do with third party dye ink.
My experience with the Pro9000 and the Office inkjet from Lidl was terrible. Blacks and cyans fade visibly in a week.

 

[palombian]

By regular PBK and R, do you mean what Octoinkjet sells as ‘enhanced’ Photo Black and Red ?. In fact, I believe that those are OEM Canon inks. I use OEM Red but all the others (including PBK) are the normal/cheap inks from Octoinket. According to them, some glossy papers might be problematic with normal PBK (bad adherence, poor resistance to rubbing.. ) but I tried Canon Platinum and no problems. As I had only a few sheets of Platinum (the samples which came with the printer) I couldn’t try extensively though.

Would be much to ask that you hang on a wall one of these Aldi prints and, after a few weeks, compare with another identical print kept in the dark ?
I did so with two prints made with Pro10 Octoinkjet inks and Epson luster paper. No visible changes between the exposed print and the one kept in a box.
It will be interesting to know if this Aldi paper behaves significantly better in the long term with third party pigment ink than other cheap papers do with third party dye ink.
My experience with the Pro9000 and the Office inkjet from Lidl was terrible. Blacks and cyans fade visibly in a week.

With "regular" I mean the normal/cheap ones.
I find the Red very satisfactory, the PBK definitily not, although it is blacker than the C1158 from the original STS formula both Precision Colors an Octoinkjet still offer for the 9500.
Compared to dye ink pigments do not fade. I have OEM prints on the wall since 10 years and refills for over 5 years without any visible change, so considering my life expectancy I don't care.
I can insure you the Aldi paper behaves very well with pigment ink.
All 3th party inks fade fast (also the PRO-100 ink sold by quality shops as Precision Colors, as have been tested by Aardenburg).
Even Canon states their dyes only have 1/10 of the longevity as pigment (10 yrs vs 100 ).
As far as I understand fading has little to do with the papers sold actually. In the beginning there were swellable papers who absorbed the dye ink and protected it from gas and UV influences. Needless to say such paper was not made for pigment ink.

What made you decide to use OEM R but "cheap" Octoink PBK, my first impression tended for the inverse ?

What is your opinion about the Octoinkjet CO vs OEM ?

 

[Artur5]

I decided OEM red instead of third party because Precision Colors says that, at present, they haven’t been able to make a red matching the gamut of the Canon OEM, unlike all the other colors of the Pro10 SE inks. Concerning PBK, even if Octoninkjet warns about possible adherence problems with their regular ink on super glossy papers, as I print mostly on luster/matte media I didn’t think it was a problem, Also, I tried with Canon Platinum and saw no issues with this PBK.
As for the comparison between OEM and Octoinkjet CO, I wouldn’t know. After making profiles for each set of inks, at naked eye I see no differences on the prints. Surely a colorimeter would but I’m not so picky. It’s quite possible as well that if I used compatible Red instead of OEM I couldn’t spot differences either.
I don’t quite agree about paper type making no difference on the fading factor, at least with third party dye inks. Canon/Epson papers behaved considerably better than the Lidl paper with my cheap ink for the Pro9000. That Lidl faded more in two weeks than the others in two months,

 

[palombian]

Thanks for confirming the quality of the Octoinkjet CO and the adherence of the "cheap" PBK on Platinum (didn't test this one yet).
Most probably Octo based the warning on customer complaints (you must let the print dry at least 10-15 min).

The inks for PRO-10 Octoinjet sells are not the same as the Precision Colors ones.
While PC insists on using OEM R, Octo sees it's PBK as the weakest point.

My first tests confirm this, the Octoinkjet Red quality can also be seen on the gamut print.

I remember Jose Rodriguez refilling his PRO-10 from PRO-1000 carts.
If it is true the inks are the same the easiest source for OEM ink could be carts for the ImagePrograph printers (PGI-1000 80ml, 2000 160ml).

Since the paper quality is no issue for fading resistance with pigment inks (lying on the surface) I wont discuss on that. Quit dye inks for this reason since long.

 

[Artur5]

I presumed that if PC SE red ink can’t match OEM Red, in all likelihood the regular red sold by Octoinkjet won’t match it either You know that Octoinkjet sells also an enhanced PGI-72 red. I asked Martin ( aka @websnail ) and he confirmed that enhanced = OEM ( probably extracted from Pro1000/2000 carts ). Therefore, I gathered that he believes too that his compatible red isn’t up to Canon standards.
Of course those are my assumptions, not necessarily facts and I would be glad if proven wrong, because OEM ink is four times more expensive.
Anyway, going by your gamut tests, when I finish my OEM red, probably I’ll buy a small bottle of compatible to compare.

 

[palombian]

I also presumed the "cheap" R and PBK would be candidates to replace by OEM, but wanted to try myself.

At 123ink PGI1000 carts are € 41,50 for 80 ml and PGI1100 € 72.50 for 160 ml.
If this is the source, with the work and the bottle Martin does not make much benefit and considers this a service to his customers.

 

[palombian]

PS: I reviewed my test prints and - assuming the strawberries are a demanding red - the result with the profile I made with the Octoinkjet inkset was better than the one printed with the profile made for OEM inks.
I suppose a lot of people use OEM profiles with 3th party ink assuming they are a 100% match, but if it is only 90% the same amount of ink gives only 90% of the result.
A custom made profile will try to correct the lacking 10% as far as possible achieving maybe 95%.

No printer is calibrated the same either. If you use Canon paper and ink you should calibrate your PRO printer to get it in line with all the others and the profiles installed with the printer.
A profile (and the resulting print) I make myself for Canon paper and ink is visibly different from the one distributed.

This is IMO even more so for 3th party inks.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

You are right - both the ink and the paper have a significant impact onto the color reproduction, visible as well in different shapes and sizes of the gamut volumes when you do your own profiles. It does not help if a refill ink matches the OEM ink by 90 or 95% if the user does not use the genuine OEM papers in conjunction with such inks, you can get anything in between from a very poor print result to an acceptable print in terms of color reproduction, and it's not just the colors which make a difference but as well the black level of a given ink on different papers, the black level creates an impression of contrast. And there is another variable - particular driver/quality/paper choice settings, you would have to do your profiles for any parameter combination you want to use later on. Such details are hidden in a proprietary/custom section of the OEM profiles and the driver itself. The paper selection defines the ink limits for that paper. A glossy brand A paper may be different than a glossy brand B paper.
Fading of dye inks is a separate issue which I covered elsewhere in several threads, I tested mainly epson inks but as well a few Canon compatible inks and HP bottled inks which performed quite well in this respect.

 

[palombian]

I am no expert but I tried to qualify the blacks on the test prints I made so far.
With the Xrite Colorpicker tool in the original Colormunki Photo software I measured the Lab values (of the dark patch upper right) and calculated an approximative Dmax=LOG10(903/L).
My values are maybe on the high side but what is important is the rank.

PRO-10 (Lab values between parenthesis added)

Canon Glossy II with OEM PBK & CO:2,38 (3.8/0.3/-0.7)
Canon Glossy II with OEM PBK & Precision Colors CO:2,34 (4.1/0.3/-0.9)
Canon Platinum Pro with OEM PBK & CO: 2.41 (3.5/0.2/-1)
Aldi Glossy with OEM PBK & CO: 2.54 (2.6/0.2/-0.7)
Aldi Glossy with Octoinkjet PBK & Precision Colors CO: 2.05 (8.1/0.9/0.2)
Ilford Smooth Pearl with OEM PBK & CO: 2.36 (3.9/0.1/-0.8)
Ilford Smooth Pearl with Octoinkjet PBK & Precision Colors CO: 2.04 (8.2/0.9/0.2)

PRO-9500

Aldi Glossy with STS C1158P: 1.85 (12.8/2.5/0.5)
Brother Matte with Prodinks MBK: 1.68 (18.8/1.7/1.1)

My first conclusions:

- Precision Colors CO has limited negative effect on Dmax (no Octoinkjet CO available)
- Octoinkjet "standard compatible" PBK is considerably less black than OEM
- replacing with OEM PBK makes this inkset the best available this side of the Atlantic
- compared to the 9500 I am better off with all inks
- watch the Aldi folders


PS: for the Aldi paper I made a profile myself, most probably the Canon papers will become better when profiled on my particular printer, paper and ink batch.

PS 11/01/2020: after several refills the Octoinkjet Standard PBK achieved much better black levels (3.0,0.6,-0.2)
mixing with OEM can have strange effects ...

Although it is a tedious job, flushing a cart before changing ink removes some uncertainties.