Looking at the P700

pharmacist

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I'm just showing in my above table the luminance levels L* of the black patches of the various ink/paper combinations w/o and with a GO overprint.
I have supplemented the table here with the complete Lab values to adddress another aspect - the color - the tint of these black patches - how neutral are these black inks actually

_____________Sihl/Aldi______Netbit/Aldi____HP Premium Plus

Epson P700_____5,25/---______7,80/ 9,23_____ 8,28/ 7,02 L
Photoblack____-0,19/---_____-0,47/-1,00_____-0,54/-1,23 a
______________-2,06/---_____-3,30/-1,11_____-3,15/-0,85 b


Epson P800_____2,69/---______3,80/ 6,23______4,27/ 3,65 L
Photoblack____-0,21/---_____-0,20/-0,51_____-0,35/-0,42 a
______________-0,78/---_____-1,18/-2,06_____-0,96/-0,07 b


Canon PFI105___2,28/---______8,79/ 5,51______6,92/ 4,82 L
Photoblack____-0,09/---_____-0,91/-1,08_____-0,83/-0,63 a

(Pro10s)______-1,38/---_____-5,51/-3,70_____-5,06/-2,63 b

You can see that the b value -b into the green direction - varies between -5.5 and -0,07 for the various ink and paper combinations - with or w/o GO. Not all of that is visible as a tint but the prints with a b=-5.5 or -5 look slightly cooler than the other black patches in direct comparison. This just applies to the pure black patches - I'm not measuring and comparing gray patches here or with other printers, printers with light gray inks and a ABW mode may deliver rather different results, probably interesting but I don't have such printers and inks available.
Did you try to put LLK in the GO overprint. I think this would mimic the real situation with both the P800/P700, as these printers don't use GO, but LLK instead ?
 

Ink stained Fingers

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that sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm currently running the GO overprint via the black channel of a WF2010W - A4 only and cannot limit the ouput to the pure black patches. A gray overprint onto the other color patches won't make sense - I'm actually running a small color patch sheet with 50 - 100 patches to create profiles at the same time, I'm using the test sequence to compare the gamuts of some other inks as well -e.g. the Canon PFI-105 Magenta to the P400 magenta I got from farbenwerk, or cyan inks from different sources. But I may consider the idea for a separate test with some black only patches.
 

Ink stained Fingers

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I did a test along @pharmacist 's proposal, I mixed a kind of LLk ink - with 3 parts clear ink + 1 part P700 black , I printed a black patch which reads a L*=7.76 vs. L*=7.8 from the previous test on the Netbit paper with the P700 black, I did an overprint with that 'LLK' sample ink and get a L*=4.51 (D=2.3) in this case. This could confirm that the BEO - Black Enhanced Overcoat - works by improving the black level of the photo black ink. This is one test only, results may vary with different papers and a different ink concentration of the LLK ink. This approach - via the driver - applies the LLK ink to the darkest areas only but does not have any other effect as the GO/CO may have - reducing gloss differences between different colors and printed and unprinted areas and printed areas with different ink densities.
Epson has introduced this BEO mode apparently with the latest printer models - P700 - P900 -P7500 - P9500 and probably some more in the larger format range. This BEO mode is not available as a driver option for any other printer model I'm aware of, and drivers for printers with a LLk ink cannot be updated at this time.
 
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Ink stained Fingers

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I did some testing which goes beyond the original scope of this thread and my tests of various black inks on different papers above. I did not just switched black inks but as well Cyan and Magenta inks to detect differences between OEM and 3rd party refill inks but only on the Sihl/Aldi paper.
When you look to the gamuts of various combinations you see 2 distinct ranges in the magenta/blue range +a-b , the 4th quarter at a L*=50

Gamuts.JPG


All outlines in the bottom right quarter - +a -b - belong to OEM inks of various types - some leftovers or from a friend - original Epson Durabrite ink - Epson Ultrachrome XD inks - HP 903 inks of an Officejet - Epson 113 pigment inks of an Ecotank printer - Canon PFI 105 inks , all inner lines belong to profiles with Conecolor inks - Pigmera HG2 P400 refill inks - Aomya Chinese inks.
All these refill inks perform weaker than the OEM inks of Epson, Canon or HP. The WF2010W is not using orange or red inks like the Epson P400 or Canon printers, but these findings seem to go in line with
comments by @mikling that the Canon OEM reds are better than the substitute inks which are offerered as well as part of the Pro10 Signature ink set
http://precisioncolors.com/C10B.html
 
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palombian

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My tests with PRO-10 inks show similar patterns.
Martin's (octoinkjet.co.uk) inkset has less gamut than Mike's Precision Colors SE.
Although Mike attains almost the same gamut for most colors (his ink is damn good), he admitted he failed for the red, his lab has no access to the molecules Canon uses.
Strange enough Martin's red is better than Mike's, but the latter says he doesn't risk too high pigment load.

Anyway, with the new non-refillable Epson and Canon printers I fear for their business.
 

Ink stained Fingers

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When reading this P700 review I'm seeing a little surprise

https://www.redrivercatalog.com/inf...700-review-and-insiders-guide.html#blackwhite


' Print quality choices for Photo Papers

  • Level 1 Superfine - 1440x720
  • Level 2 (Quality) Superfine - 1440x720
  • Level 3 Photo - 1440x1440
  • Level 4 SuperPhoto 5760x1440 (Borderless printing not supported)
  • Level 5 SuperPhoto Carbon Black 5760x1440 (Borderless printing not supported) '
that the highest quality levels for photo papers don't support borderless printing, I'm not aware that the predecessors P600 or R3000 had this limitation.

RedRiver as a major paper supplier is reading a best black level of L*=2.7 which by far is not meeting
Epson's claim of a superior Dmax, I can get such black level with various inks and papers.


Quality Level 5
L* = 2.7
a* = 0.1
b* = -0.2


which supports Keith's opinion
Personally, the word 'Dmax' appearing anywhere is always a potential warning sign...

which by far does not meet Epson's claim of a Dmax of 2.95
 

stratman

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Researching borderless printing and potential limitations for the Epson P600 is proving a bit more difficult than it should be. So far I have found a couple comments in the user guide that allude to limitations either overtly or covertly.

6. Select the size of the paper you loaded as the Paper Size setting.
• To print a borderless photo, select the Borderless check box or a paper size with a Borderless option. You can also create a custom paper size, but the highest available Output Resolution setting is limited to Fine- 720 dpi.
And

Borderless.png
 

maximilian59

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There might be two reasons for the borderless limitations.
1. A very high ink load may lead to curved papers. I had this also on my Pro-1000 even with the vacuum system, leading to head strikes. Even Epson printheads don't like this. Afterwords people complain about a bad printer. Yes I know, you can widen the gap, but this results in less accuracy for the drop lay down because of a longer way for them from printhead to paper.
2. The higher overspray leads to more ink wasted, which must be put away. I don't know how much all the sponges can take, before leading to problems.
 

Ink stained Fingers

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I'm reading elsewhere in the review that the BEO option can only be activated together with the highest quality settings level 4 and 5 for glossy papers, this supports @maximilian59 's explanation that the additional ink load from overspray - additional to the black ink - cannot be carried away reliably by the foam pad in the print bed.
This implies that you cannot use the BEO option for the best black level together with the higher quality levels for borderless prints - the driver won't allow such settings.
 
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nertog

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  • Level 4 SuperPhoto 5760x1440 (Borderless printing not supported)
  • Level 5 SuperPhoto Carbon Black 5760x1440 (Borderless printing not supported) '
that the highest quality levels for photo papers don't support borderless printing, I'm not aware that the predecessors P600 or R3000 had this limitation.
Can someone with a P700 confirm this? Maybe @Keith Cooper? The scans from Red River show visible microbanding at 1440x720 and 1440x1440dpi. It would be a shame having to live with this because of yet another software limitation...
 
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