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Epson R1900 or Canon Pro9000MKII to refill with Precision Colors Inks?

Discussion in 'Everything Else InkJet Printer Related' started by aruiz, Jun 1, 2010.

  1. Jun 1, 2010
    aruiz

    aruiz Getting Fingers Dirty

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    Hello.

    This is my first post here. First, I want that you excuse me for my little English. I hope that you can understand what I write.
    My name is Xavi and Im writing from Barcelona, Catalonia, Europe.
    Every time that I search some information about printers and inks I found the answer here.
    Thats the reason because I will try to solve here, with this post some important doubts that I have. I hope that you can help me with your big knowledgement.
    Actually I am using a Canon MP540 European version. This multifunctional uses the basic color configuration C,M,Y and Black colors. I refill it with Precision Colors inks. Im happy with this ink but I am extremelly happy with the professional and friendly support of Mike, the seller.

    This Canon printer prints with high resolution, there is no banding nor grain on their prints. But this printer is a nightmare for me on color accuracy.

    I use 2 monitors to work with Photoshop CS4. Both are calibrated with a colorimeter and my main monitor is an Eizo. I use Photoshop CS4 for printing and after had been profiled 4 times the printer with 2 different papers with an Spyder 3, always prints with a very strong magenta cast. I have read here that this means that the profile is applied twice but the color management is totally disabled on printer driver (or thats what the printer driver says)

    Finally after a lot of hours of work, inks and paper, using one of these ICC profiles, I have adjusted manually the levels of Cyan, Magenta and Yellow colors on printer driver with acceptable results.

    But my prints seems to transmit a digital feel, with vibrant colors but not natural, not realistic (poor gamut). Another problem that I see very easily is that dark tones are turned to practically black color. Also foliage color is muted without luminance.

    Then I want to buy another printer but an A3+ printer. After looking prices here on Europe (very different that printer prices on USA) I am undecided between two printers that here costs exactly the same: the Canon Pro9000 MKII and the Epson R1900.

    I dont want to spend a lot of money on a printer or on OEM inks. And seems that the R1900 is better that a R2880 using some papers:

    R1900 is probably the best wide color gamut printer currently available. It excels in producing bright saturated color prints on gloss/semi-gloss paper and excellent skin tones. R1900 struggles with black & white prints and art paper.
    R2880 is probably the best B&W printer on the market. It creates superb black & white prints and produces subtle art prints with extremely smooth gradations. The gloss printing is in line with industry standards, but clearly inferior to R1900."
    Found here: http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/hardware/22429-epson-r1900-epson-r2880.html

    I don't print often on B&W and comparing the better price that I have found here of the R1900 (475EUR=USD578) vs the R2880 (730EUR=889USD) I think that is a best buy a R1900.

    I have compared two recommended printers that here costs exactly the same (R1900 vs Pro9000).

    For me seems a better cartridges color configuration on the Pro9000 with 8 different colors (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, LC, LM, Black, Red and green) than only 6 different colors found on the R1900 (C,M,Y,Black, orange and red) plus a cartridge of matte black and a glossy optimizator. The R1900 hasn't the LC nor the LM cartridges but has an orange and red cartidges that seems to improve color skins (I do not print a lot of portraits). But the results on prints with the R1900 seems better on color accuracy, DMax, detail, B&W and a much greater color Gamut. Here is a very good comparison (if the results are true): http://www.printerinfo.com/content/...oto-Printer-Review-1120/Color-Performance.htm

    On the other hand seems that the reviewers of the R1900 are extremist: who love the R1900 or who hate the R1900 (a common complaints are that don't prints well on matte papers, underexposition on prints, that I also see on the print of the dog, on the above link, and some complaints about banding). THe Pro9000 seems to produce unanimity on the reviewers: they love their Pro9000 and is recommended for a 89% here http://www.reviewgist.com/printer-r... r2880, r1900 &sortBy=relevanceDesc&submit=Go and the R1900 only for a 75%.

    If I search on Google for "r1900 clog" or "Pro9000 clog" I found a lot of occurrencies with the R1900 and fews with the Pro9000. Also the printhead of the CAnon is easily removable then cleanable. I also know that pigment inks clogs easily than dye inks.

    But seems that pigment inks reproduces much better shadow details and colors on shadows. Without the "punch" of the dye inks. I prefer color accuracy: try to print what I see on the screen than a more "spectacular" and fake print.

    Reading different comparison test I prefer to buy an R1900 but all the above results are based on OEM inks. Then I dont know if these results will be comparable using Precision Colors inks.

    Here glossy Epson paper and Epson Matte paper are cheaper. Then, using Precision Colors inks, Epson Glossy or Matte papers and profiling the printer with a Spyder 3, which one is a better option ?

    Pigment inks, from Precision Colors, for the Epson R1900 matches better the Epson OEM inks or the dye inks for the Pro9000 MKII matches better the Canon OEM inks?

    Do you think that refilling and profiling an R1900 I will obtain a good color accuracy including shadow details?

    Sorry for a post so long and sorry once more for my little English.

    I hope that you can help me on my decision.

    Thank you very much.

    Xavi.
     
  2. Jun 2, 2010
    leo8088

    leo8088 Printing Ninja

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    This is my 2 cents.

    The first: if you need archival prints buy an Epson and use pigment based ink. I am sure this is a common knowledge. Canon Pro9000 MKII is a dye based printer. It will print absolutely fabulous color photos with very little effort no questions about it. But if you need archival prints it is not for you period.

    The 2nd: Your high end monitors are absolutely among the highest end monitors. They have probably great gamuts that very few others can compete. If you choose an Epson printer and use a set of 3rd party pigment based ink or even if you decide to go for a Canon Pro9000 MKII. the gamut of the printer/ink/paper will likely be no match to the gamut of your monitors. So matching colors between your monitors and the printer you choose will not be trivial. It is a huge task of color management work. It will be far more complicated than choosing a printer and ink for the printer.

    I am not saying it can not be done. It will be fun and I am sure I will be one among many who would be interested in learning your experiences when you get it done successfully.
     
  3. Jun 3, 2010
    mikling

    mikling Printer VIP Platinum Printer Member

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    Softproofing using the mfr's profiles will give you an idea of the potential of the printer if OEM inks and papers are used. Softproofing is a key part of ICC profiles and printer profiles are grossly misunderstood if you don't understand the role of softproofing. Profiling is not to perfect output but rather an attempt to optimize it within limits AND allow predictable output prior to printing by seeing it on the screen.

    Download driver, install and then find correct profile. Softproof image. That will set the upper bounds of what the printer can do.

    You now have an idea what the print should look like. If the output doesn't look like it, then something has gone wrong. Color management is not for sissies as said by Grandad35. Sometimes it is a nightmare if settings are wrong and you don't know what you did wrong in the setup of the software. Photoshop is one of these. It is so versatile that it can get too complicated at times. That is one reason why I use Qimage besides the neat sharpening options that really work.
     
  4. Jun 3, 2010
    leo8088

    leo8088 Printing Ninja

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    Soft proofing is a technique of applying ICC profiles to make your monitor showing the colors that your print will look like. The proof image on your monitor will not show the colors of your original image captured by your image capturing device (a camera or a scanner) with a color space different from the color space of your printer with the ink and medium it uses. The process does not make your print to match the colors of your original image. It only produces a proof image on your screen with colors managed to match to the colors your printer will print.

    To make it easier to understand, it matches the monitor to your print, not to match your print to your monitor. Your Spyder calibrated monitor is capable of display accurately all the colors of your original image. But soft proofing is not going to do anything to match your prints to these colors on the monitor. Instead, it displays a proof image that looks like what your print is going to be.

    Soft proofing is not a key part of ICC profiling. It is an application of ICC profiling. If you go to ICC web site and see the documents provided there you will not see a single word about soft proofing in the history of the development of ICC.

    Photoshop is a far better printing software than Qimage is. There are tons of plugins developed for Photoshop that enhance it to a point no other software can match. Excessive sharpening makes an image artificial. It's not art but artificial. It's fake. Not because it really matters but I personally never want to apply any further sharpening over the already sharpened images by my camera.
     
  5. Jun 3, 2010
    leo8088

    leo8088 Printing Ninja

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    Hum... You actually blame the printer, not the ink, for the poor color accuracy?
     
  6. Jun 4, 2010
    mikling

    mikling Printer VIP Platinum Printer Member

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    Well Leo8088, I've noticed that you've always trailed my post with a negative taint and with a bent for antagonism. If I have offended you I will be a nigger person and apologize. You are the best there is. I hope that satisfies your personality.
     
  7. Jun 4, 2010
    mikling

    mikling Printer VIP Platinum Printer Member

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  8. Jun 4, 2010
    leo8088

    leo8088 Printing Ninja

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    I am sorry that you felt it that way. In fact I responded to this thread before you did. I wasn't trailing your post at all. Perhaps you are talking about the other thread about Epson ink cartridges. Why didn't you answer my question about Epson printer's New Ink Cartridge Priming Sequence? You introduced something I never heard of so I asked you to explain. If you give an answer I would be satisfied.

    I am also having doubt about this: Softproofing is a key part of ICC profiles.

    I spent a lot of time reading documents published in ICC site in the past. I never got the impression that softproofing is anywhere near being important. In my opinion softproofing is an application of ICC profiles. There are other proofing systems utilized by professionals. Softproofing is not a key part of ICC profiles.

    If I were trailing your posts it it would be I have questions about your posts. If I have a doubt I would like to straighten it out. Don't take it personally. That's how you participate in a public forum. I apologize if you feel offended.
     
  9. Jun 4, 2010
    leo8088

    leo8088 Printing Ninja

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    Thank you for pointing to this site. It has this text right on the first page it displays:

    Soft Proofing

    Soft proofing is simply a mechanism that allows you to view on your computer monitor what your print will look like when it is on paper. A specific paper. That paper and ink combination has been defined by the profile that you or someone else has made for your printer / paper and ink combination. When a printer profile is made the colour of the paper is one of the factors that is figured into the profile, because the spectrophotometer is reading the combination of the ink, and the paper that lies beneath it.

    So, if you were able to view your image through the printer profile, you would be able to see how that particular combination of ink and paper would reproduce it, taking into account the gamut as well as other characteristics of the inks used.

    Isn't this what I said too? By softproofing you see the colors your printer will print on your screen. This is in fact matching the colors on your monitor to the colors of your print. There is nothing wrong about this. It is just one proofing system out there.

    A suggestion. Do a Google search of softproofing or soft proofing and find out how popular it is.
     
  10. Jun 4, 2010
    leo8088

    leo8088 Printing Ninja

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    I just did a search of www.photo.net at its digital camera and digital darkroom forums. I found no mentioning of softproofing by anyone. I don't know why. I thought I could find more about softproofing there. I tried not to look at vendor's sites which may be full of marketing words. I specifically look for discussions and learn from people who actually have done it successfully. I found very little information. Where should I look instead?
     

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