Colour Matching / Profiles - Please Educate Me

[plevyadophy]

Just been looking at a few posts in this Forum.

I have seen mention of Cathy's Profiles, Profile Prism and Qimage.

As a result of my reading I have a few questions which hope some of you more experienced folk can help me with.


1. Do I really need to get those programs/services?
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My kit consists of an HP Tablet PC, Samsung external monitor, Canon BJC-85 portable printer, Canon CanoScan N67U scanner.

I am running Windows XP Professional.

In the following directory " cwindows\system32\spool\drivers\color" I just discovered a number of *.icc and *.icm files.

I discovered that they are colour profiles. And that there is at least one file for each of my pieces of equipment; some items like my printer have *.icm files and other pieces of hardware have *.icc.

I don't know where these files came from as I didn't knowingly install them. So I guess they installed themselves automatically when I installed software for the individual pieces of hardware or may Windows installed them itself.


Anyway, now that I have these files do I really need to bother with the likes of Cathy's Profiles, Profile Prism and Qimage etc?

And what is the difference between an *.icc file and an *.icm file?


2. How do I use these files
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So far I have done a "right-click" with my mouse on each of the *.icc and *.icm files in the directory I just mentioned, and from the pop up menu that comes up I have selected "properties" and then associated each file with the relevant piece of hardware.

The monitor has three files that can be assoicated with it: "sRGB Color Space Profile.icm", "CNBSTD.ICC" (which is the Canon BJ Standard profile, and apparantly it is supposed to be for use with Canon BJ printers) and "CNZ005.ICC" (which is the Canon HDTV gamma 1.5 Monitor profile)

My external Samsung monitor has it's own *.icm file

My scanner has an *.icc file

And the printer appears to have a choice of two *.icm files. (CNBJPR14 and CNBJPRN)

My Canon BJC-85 printer has access to two driver utilities. One that ships with Windows XP and the other ships with the printer. The Windows driver utility has a tab showing the Color Profile associated with the printer and another option that allows you to select Color Control with the option within Color Control to switch Color Matching (ICM on System) on or off.

The Canon version of the BJC-85 driver utility also has the same tab showing the Color Profile associated with the printer. But instead of Color Control it has an option called "Colour Adjustment" In Colour Adjustment you can set it to Enable ICM. The Help dialogue for the Enable ICM option states that Enable ICM "Turns Image Colour Management (ICM) on when checked. ICM is the colour correction function built into Windows. Check this box to turn ICM on. If you turn ICM on, colour correction based on the sRGB default profile will be done. Uncheck this box to turn ICM off."

The Canon scanner's (CanoScan N670U) scanner driver utility doesn't appear to allow the user to select a color profile ( i.e. an *.icc or *.icm file). I guess you just have to associate a profile file with the scanner via Windows. Anyway there is an option in the scanner driver utility to enable "Canon ColorGear Color Matching".

How the scanner does the Color Matching I don't know.For within Windows I have associated two profiles with the scanner: CNS600.ICC and "sRGB Color Space Profile.icm" (this one is also associated with my Tablet PC monitor).

Having scanned an image into MGI PhotoSuite v8.1 and looking at it on screen, the colours look very different to the original document. The bright orange looking red of the original looks more dark, a kind of red wine colour on screen. And the printed image looked nothing like what was on screen or the original, although I suspect that is because I am running low on ink.

So folks, how do I set everything up so it's working nicely?

Have you noticed something that I have done wrong?

Or am I missig something? For example, does the program into which I scan also have to be *.icc *.icm compliant for it to appear correctly on screen?

Hope someone can help.

Thanks in advance.



UPDATE:

I have just printed a scanned image using the following setup:

Scan = IS-12 Scan Cartridge in my BJC-85 printer
Scan Profile = sRGB Color Space Profile.icm
Print = BCI-12 Colour OEM Ink Tanks in BJC-85 Printer, printing at High Quality setting
Print Profile = Enable ICM option ticked
Tablet PC Moniter Profile = sRGB Color Space Profile.icm (i.e. same as scanner, and I guess printer?)


The result?

A printed image that is near identical to what I saw on the screen. The only problem being that the colours showed on the screen and in the final print bear no resemblance to the colour of the original document.



Your comments and suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.


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[Grandad35]

Plevyadophy,

You are asking the same questions that I asked 4 months ago when I decided to get into a "color managed workflow". The first question that you should ask yourself is "Do I really want to spend the time, effort and money required to get the colors on all of my devices calibrated?" For many people who just want to print snapshots, the answer is "No!", and they can stop reading at this point.

If your answer is "Yes", buy a large bottle of your favorite headache remedy and start reading - plan on a least a week of intense study and experimentation. At first, everything will appear to be Greek (unless you are from Greece, then it will appear to be Latin), but you will eventually "learn the language" and it will actually begin to make sense. I won't attempt to answer all of your questions, as that would take a book. Here are a few links to get you started:
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/color_management.htm
http://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html

Follow the links in these links, then follow the links in those links. When all of the links begin to point back to where you started, you can stop.

I also assume that you have a "color aware" photo editing program such as Photoshop. A lot of people use Qimage for printing, as it is color aware and more versatile than Photoshop for printing.

Almost every driver installs .icc files in the specified directory (Windows already used the .icc extension for something else, so they use .icm for profiles - the two file types are identical and the extensions can be used interchangeably).

A short explanation of what is in a "profile". Some profiles only define the "gamut" of the color space that is available. There are colors that can't be displayed on a monitor, and even more colors that can't be printed using only Cyan, Yellow, Magenta and blacK (CMYK - that is why some printers add additional colors to expand the color gamut that they can print). Other profiles (e.g. for a printer) also incorporate a LUT (Look Up Table) that tells the driver what RGB values to send to the printer to actually get the desired color value on the finished print. The data in this table changes for each ink, paper and printer combination. Actually, it also changes slightly for each specific printer and print head if you are really fussy - that is why many people generate "custom profiles" for their devices.

You have already found that your scanner needs a profile to accurately translate the colors that it reports into the actual colors so that the image is accurately displayed and printed. Actually, the profile that was supplied with your scanner may do a good job, but you have to first "assign the scanner profile to the image" and then "convert the image to your working color space". When this sentence begins to make sense, you are beginning to learn the language.

Good Luck.

 

[plevyadophy]

@ Grandad35

In another Forum ( Canon Digital Photography Forums - Canon ICC Profile Guide - Something New for Canon Printers ) you said:

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It is possible to use CM with Microsofts Photo Printing Wizard (PPW) (or PS without CM), but it is a little more involved. Select PreferencesMainColor AdjustmentManualSet Enable ICM. Note that the color adjustments on this page WILL affect the color of the finished print when using PPW. It is also necessary to select the desired ICC profile in PropertiesColor Management. Note that on shared printers this information can only be changed on the server, as it will be grayed out on other computers. If Automatic is selected, the ICC profile will be selected based on the paper and quality settings (but why go to all this trouble just to use the default profiles?). If Manual is selected, the profile selected as the default will be used. It is easy to add other profiles and make them the default, but it is a little dangerous in that these settings are global for all users and somewhat hidden.
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The thing is I can't find the options in Microsofts Photo Printing Wizard that you speak of. I am using Windows XP.

When I click on a picture the Wizard pops up but there are no options like the ones you home described.

please advise

thanks in advance.

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[Nifty]

Maybe Grandad or someone else with profile experience can take some screenshots of the process (you can use "print screen" on your keyboard then crop) and post them here.

 

[Grandad35]

Plevyadophy,

In the PPW "Printing Options" display (the next dialog box after you select the photos to be printed) there should be a "Printing Preferences" button to select the Preferences. (http://www.nifty-stuff.com/img/files/Preferences1.jpg) Preferences set in this way will only be used for this set of photos, and will revert to the default settings the next time that the PPW is activated.

To get to the "Printing Properties" dialogs, use "Start/Control Panel/Printers and Faxes", right click on the printer, then select "Properties". (http://www.nifty-stuff.com/img/files/Properties.jpg) If your printer is connected to another computer and shared across the network, you will have to make these changes on the computer that is connected to the printer. Changes made in this way will become your default settings. If you want to make changes to your default "Printing Preferences" settings, access the preferences by the same "Start/Control Panel " path before invoking the PPW.

Did this answer your question?

 

[plevyadophy]

Thanks.

Understand what you mean now.

Before, I was thinking that you meant that the Microsoft Photo Printing Wizard had some ICM setting built into itself. Now I realise you are talking about the option that takes you to your own printer's driver settings.

Thanks again, for the clarification.


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[allenandbemrose]

Hi,

Colour matching between different screens, printers and even paper is always going to be a pain to get right. I work with spot colours a lot for graphics work, needless to say there are elements of photography in there as well.

Getting things to match is all down to color profiles, these are used by printers, adobe, monitors as well as web applications. I have found the best policy is to keep things simple, but to do this you need to make sure all the profiles match. Not an easy task.

I tore my hair out trying to work all of this out, in the end I spoke to a guy at a Paper supply company (I think it may have been york and ford??) he told me to have a look at www.colourmatcher.com. Not any easy site to get to grips with, but the guys at the end of the phone really new their stuff, well they would because they were trying to sell me something! Give site a read it goes some way to helping explain my printers and monitors do what they do..

Cheers J

 

[Smile]

You need to have color profiles for all your devices that input/output data.
You need your monitor calibrated and then profiled same is for your printer, then you can use these color profiles to reproduce accurate color on screen and on you printer.

Color management can sound easy or difficult but accurate color depends on device accuracy that measures color (spectrophotometer) and operator skill. For example for some printers you must print test chart than print the same rotated 180 degrees and average the readings to get what printer really prints.

It is good that use CRT monitor as these are better than any not very expensive LCD for working with color.

Q: How do I use Profiles, and where do I get them?

A: I myself have a company and make profiles I work locally now, but if you are interested contact me and I'll see what I can do.

You can search on google for other companies too, but in most the price is high or profile quality is moderate.
Best if you can find local company and get the service done on site because one thing that reduces profiles accuracy is user error in printing the test chart like: wrong printer settings, not testing do all nozzles fire before printing the test, not verifying if every color patch is printed without smearing etc.

Also a local firm could profile your cameras too, even if do not use them in the studio. Because everyone thinks that only in studio camera profiling is worth it – wrong.

Now for the huge price we pay for OEM ink everyone should have a possibility to get a custom profiles for their printer. And trust me it's experience that makes 50% of color profile quality. Good support is a must.

When even the big companies like Chromix charge you around 100$ for 1 profile that is too much expensive I think. The support is not so good either bouncing between different staff members etc. Ridiculously small prices on the other hand are suspicious too, like they say you get what you pay for. I use to say: You can always get better, but not necessarily more expensive.



For example flower macro photography is a good example. Or anything that needs the depth of field that a correctly profiled camera can record in you photos and save hours on editing them in photoshop.

Q: For inks, printer, papers. and other?

A: Paper depends on your taste if you have profiles for every paper that is
For ink I recommend InkTec

Q: Do profiles work with Photoshop or the printer driver?

A: Profiles work with Photoshop Hey it's the best color management application for professional editing.
I would recommend using Qimage for batch prints as quality is the same as Photoshop or in some cases better, the program price is reasonable too.

Some visual comparison of how profiled workflow give you advantages by indroducing simplicity not complexity - IF you buy your profiles. If you choose to make them yourself - no problem there, but you must learn so many things that it outweights the benefits of just paying for a good profile.

Color profiling unlocks shadows in photos and they appear more in depth than non profiled ones. Profiles can be attached using Photoshop automatically or by using third party open source command line tools, it is easy and fast for processing batches of photos. Then you can select which ones you like and edit them in Photoshop like you said "they prefer a photo that shows how they chose to remember a scene rather than what was actually in front of the camera".

The effect can be called like I said “better depth of field” or “shadow unlocking” it occurs because a typical 8 or 10 Mega pixel camera can record more information if you shoot a macro subject with a macro lens that covers and area about 3 or 5 square centimeters than if you use it for wide angle. The profile unlocks the clipped shadows thus produces better color rendition and visually “better depth of field”.

Same is for printer profiling it makes the shadows “unlock” as we all know.

Some graphical analysis:

My printer can print ~90% of all colors my camera can produce and my monitor can display ~95% of them too so I see no problem here:

So color profiles can be used to reach these goals:
1. Acurate color
2. Starting point for "unlocking" your photo potential for making further adjustment in chosen editor
3. To make chosen effect faster than any other batch method possible for altering such broad array of variables (you can make a profile for an event your going to shoot or to make some effects for this event etc.).)
4. You will be able to softproof your print (see them on screen how they would look before printing).
5. Save about 25-35% ink.