Colour management, B&W Printing

[3dogs]

Think I just ran smack BANG into a hole in my knowledge of printing colour management and would appreciate some comments.

Printing on an Epson 3880 I turn off colour management and use a combination of my own profiles and Paper Manufacturers potted ICC profiles. this is all good for COLOUR.

What about B&W?

Typical workflow : take an image into silver efex Pro2 and develop B&W there the rerun to Lightroom, I don't often print out of PS its just too clunky for me.
then in the print module:
1) I am assuming that when I go to Advanced B&W that is taking me to the PRINTER and I should be switching off all the ICC stuff I have, and allow the printer to do its thing.

2) If I use the same image, but select the colour option I and switch off colour management, use the Canson Arches ICC Profile I am doing almost the same thing - YES?

So in effect, for me, with the printer and software that I am using I am avoiding the use of a RIP and the actual difference between the two is minimal.....BECAUSE? Silver Efex is essentially the same thing (but more user friendly) as the Quad tone thing on a different printer.
SO
When i get my Canon Pro 9000 up and running I can THEN start staring at bottles of black ink with a blinding flashlight behind them nodding my head and looking MORE like a bloody GOOSE when she downstairs, walks up and busts me THEN, and only then I can legitimise the purchase of the quad tone rip on the basis of compelling NEED!

Comment invited from all but THE HAT

Cheers

 

[jtoolman]

I use the same profiles for Color that I make with CM. My B&W files are converted in Photoshop and are still RGB.
I print B&W using the same settings as if I was printing in COLOR, which in fact, I still am if you think about it.
The results are perfectly neutral and large dynamic range.
I even print on Canson Aquarella Paper 300grams ( Fairly textured ) that I buy at the art store and use the Profile made through the CM with again great results. I spray the prints with UV protecting Matte Spray which not only protects but actually increases the depth of the blacks even more.
I never use the ABW in my PRO 3800, R2880 or R2400.

Joe

 

[The Hat]

Comment invited from all but THE HAT

Thanks for that explanation Joe, that will put some manners on him now…

 

[3dogs]

ME! Manners... Shock Horra!!!

I just wish we had a fisherman hanging on to a fishin' rod winding madly I would have put that in right here!

Joe did give me an answer in part. If I understood RogerB correctly Silver Efex is equal to quad tone, so where does Advanced B&W fit in that?
As always with Joe, he just quietly slips a clue in almost so if a person was not paying attention they might miss it.

What is UV Matte protecting Spray? More info please, as this is something Important I am guessing.

Thanks in advance.

Andrew

 

[RogerB]

ME! Manners... Shock Horra!!!
If I understood RogerB correctly Silver Efex is equal to quad tone, so where does Advanced B&W fit in that?

I hope I didn't confuse you here. SilverFx is an editing tool that helps you get to your "perfect" B&W image and that's it - end of story. How you transfer that image to paper is the business of the printing process, and different processes/workflows will give you different results.

We're talking here about three different workflows for printing your B&W image; RGB with custom ICC profiles; Epson's ABW; QuadToneRIP. Joe has said he uses the first method and gets good results; I have no reason to argue with him there. However, I believe that the other two can give better results if you are prepared to put in the extra work in optimising the workflow. Whether the difference is worth the effort is entirely up to the individual.

As someone in another thread pointed out, this is a forum full of experimenters, and in that spirit I have done some tests to compare B&W printing methods on watercolour (uncoated) paper on my 3880. I have done the comparison using a 21-step grey wedge which I measure with my i1Pro. First I printed the step-wedge using the Enhanced Matte setting with No Color Management. This shows the maximum black level that is possible for that setting. I then printed it using the Epson EEM profile using Relative Colorimetric with BPC on; then with ABW, again with EEM media setting. Finally I generated a custom curve and printed with QTR.

The printed results are shown in the composite image below. The top is EEM/Relative Colorimetric; middle is EEM/ABW and the bottom is QTR. Ideally the steps should appear to increase in density in equal amounts up to the maximum black (Dmax). I can tell you from my measurements that the only one to do this is the QTR print which has extremely good linearity. The RGB (top) one has very compressed shadows and the ABW is not quite right in the mid-tones although the shadow detail is pretty good. Interestingly the Dmax values increase from top to bottom - 1.07, 1.21, 1.25. ABW and QTR give a visible improvement in Dmax. (I should say that I have removed all the colour from these images just to make the density differences more easily seen.)

Now, I admit that I have made no effort to optimise the RGB workflow. It is quite possible that a different media setting or an increase in ink loading (Color Density) would give better results. Even so, "straight out of the box", ABW is giving a better result, again with no attempt at optimisation. QTR, as I expected, does a very good job even on this difficult medium; but, QTR is not for the faint-hearted........

If this post has been too long or too complicated then I apologise, but we are a group of experimenters after all.

P.S. Andrew - if you resurrect your 9000, don't even think about QTR - it's strictly Epson only!

 

[The Hat]

When you go to the trouble of explaining it in such great detail, it’s never too long.
You might have confused the hell out of 3dogs but he’ll soon catch up with the master..

 

[jtoolman]

ME! Manners... Shock Horra!!!

I just wish we had a fisherman hanging on to a fishin' rod winding madly I would have put that in right here!

Joe did give me an answer in part. If I understood RogerB correctly Silver Efex is equal to quad tone, so where does Advanced B&W fit in that?
As always with Joe, he just quietly slips a clue in almost so if a person was not paying attention they might miss it.

What is UV Matte protecting Spray? More info please, as this is something Important I am guessing.

Thanks in advance.

Andrew

Unlike all the fancy protectant sprays for Inkjet prints ( they claim ) I have been using $7 Krylon Low Odor Clear Finish for Art. Does it work with inkjet papers or in my case Canso Watercolor Paper NOT marketed as Inkjet compatible? Yes indeed.

The low odor version is acrylic and the regular ( Stinky ) is more of a solvent based spray which absolutely needs to be used outdoors of your wife will make sleep outside with your prints.

I print my images on the Cason WC paper which sells as a PAD or 30 sheets.
It is 3000 grams so it should be fed through the rear manual feed on the PRO 3800/3880
It is coated but only for water color painting. However the results are outstanding. After spraying the blacks are improved even more and everything seems to brighten up a bit. Not saying that the results are any less even without the spray coat. But it actually improves it even more which is a big plus.

This paper is so stiff you can hold a 12x18 sheet by the edges and it will not fold.
A pad of 30 12x18 sells for about $19 at most local US art supply stores.
I also get it in 18 x24 but have to trim off one inch to make it 17" wide to properly fit the 3800.

I did not know that about Silver Efex. I will be checking that plugin out.

Thanks
Joe

 

[mikling]

Silver Efex Pro is a joy to use with B&W. It is now a suite of plug ins that is sold by Google for a fraction of what NIK software sold it for before Google bought them out. If you don't use any other B&W processing then this one IMO is a must have.

https://www.google.com/nikcollection/

 

[3dogs]

Unlike all the fancy protectant sprays for Inkjet prints ( they claim ) I have been using $7 Krylon Low Odor Clear Finish for Art. Does it work with inkjet papers or in my case Canso Watercolor Paper NOT marketed as Inkjet compatible? Yes indeed.

The low odor version is acrylic and the regular ( Stinky ) is more of a solvent based spray which absolutely needs to be used outdoors of your wife will make sleep outside with your prints.

I print my images on the Cason WC paper which sells as a PAD or 30 sheets.
It is 3000 grams so it should be fed through the rear manual feed on the PRO 3800/3880
It is coated but only for water color painting. However the results are outstanding. After spraying the blacks are improved even more and everything seems to brighten up a bit. Not saying that the results are any less even without the spray coat. But it actually improves it even more which is a big plus.

This paper is so stiff you can hold a 12x18 sheet by the edges and it will not fold.
A pad of 30 12x18 sells for about $19 at most local US art supply stores.
I also get it in 18 x24 but have to trim off one inch to make it 17" wide to properly fit the 3800.

I did not know that about Silver Efex. I will be checking that plugin out.

Thanks
Joe

First cab up, found the very spray you mention at the local Art shop have it on order and will give it a try 'n thanks for that. The smelly version would have been ok for me as I sleep with the prints anyway, at least THEY don't gripe about the snoring

Also thanks to some very detailed advice from Mike and RogerB I have cracked two nuts, one the Munki is off my back and is reading all patches and so I now have also cracked the second and have a custom profile for the 300gsm Canson Arches Watercolour paper.
Just for comparison 15 sheets A3 costs me A$55 ( 1 A$ is US$0.934)
With this paper I use settings:
Matte
Enhanced Matte Paper
Quality Option 5
Colour controls off
In Paper Config.
Colour Density +5
Drying Time per Pass +50
Paper feed adjustment -50
and the Platen gap at Wide.

The 3880 is still asking me for Source : SHEET!!
Only time it has asked me for rear feed is when I printed some Ilford Galarie Smooth Art Paper. And Oh man! I wish that paper was around still.......it slaughters Canson for sharpness of image quality and VIVID colour from PIGMENT ink!!!

Have to give Google a BIG thumbs up here, I had a Nik version of Silver Efex, when I updated my HDD to a SSD could not get the supplied disc to download into Lightroom and PSCC. I flicked off a HELP please, to Google support........Next DAY I was up and running, they were tremendous help....100% for them!!

Really glad to have confirmation that Silver Efex is seen as that good.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[jtoolman]

First cab up, found the very spray you mention at the local Art shop have it on order and will give it a try 'n thanks for that. The smelly version would have been ok for me as I sleep with the prints anyway, at least THEY don't gripe about the snoring

Also thanks to some very detailed advice from Mike and RogerB I have cracked two nuts, one the Munki is off my back and is reading all patches and so I now have also cracked the second and have a custom profile for the 300gsm Canson Arches Watercolour paper.
Just for comparison 15 sheets A3 costs me A$55 ( 1 A$ is US$0.934)
With this paper I use settings:
Matte
Enhanced Matte Paper
Quality Option 5
Colour controls off
In Paper Config.
Colour Density +5
Drying Time per Pass +50
Paper feed adjustment -50
and the Platen gap at Wide.

The 3880 is still asking me for Source : SHEET!!
Only time it has asked me for rear feed is when I printed some Ilford Galarie Smooth Art Paper. And Oh man! I wish that paper was around still.......it slaughters Canson for sharpness of image quality and VIVID colour from PIGMENT ink!!!

Have to give Google a BIG thumbs up here, I had a Nik version of Silver Efex, when I updated my HDD to a SSD could not get the supplied disc to download into Lightroom and PSCC. I flicked off a HELP please, to Google support........Next DAY I was up and running, they were tremendous help....100% for them!!

Really glad to have confirmation that Silver Efex is seen as that good.

Cheers,

Andrew

Andrew,,,, I am the one using the Krylon Spray.