Canon to Release two new Printers

[fotofreek]

What I desire from a good photo printer is having totally saturated bright red and stunning rich yellow that are never achievable from inkjet printers with dye based ink. By adding a grey and several levels of grey/black ink it will not or never make the red and yellow more saturated. There is no way the grey ink is a crucial element for printing color photos. Marketing is marketing. Marketing people's words are just that.

I'd love to see Grandad35 chime in on this discussion as he goes beyond "eyeballing" the prints and has the background, skill, and instruments to actually measure what is currently offered as fact. I'm not disputing these comments but actual colorimetric measurements on a controlled basis would be interesting to see.

Regarding the gray inks - Again, actual measurements of the color response would be more reliable than conjecture. From the standpoint of more neutral B/W prints, MIS sells B/W inksets for Epson printers along with custom ICC profiles and photoshop curves. They currently sell four b/w tones ranging from warm to cool. The black and graduated gray inks are integral to achieving much better b/w prints than can be obtained with the cmyk sets or cmyk, pm, pc sets (plus R and G in eight cart printers). Adding in in shades of gray should produce better b/w prints and conceivably better shades of gray in color prints. Again, conjecture falls short if someone could produce actual controlled measurements.

As we've learned from participants on this forum who have been adventurous enough to open up clogged printheads, the nozzles are only one part of the potential clog issue. Apparently, many clogs occur in the passages of the body of the printhead. Canon may have reengineered certain areas in 1 picoliter printheads to avoid having a greater tendancy to clog over 2 picoliter heads. The only clogs of which I am aware with people I know who use the ip5000 printer have been in the pigmented ink nozzles/channels, much larger nozzles than the 1 picoliter dye-based nozzles. I actually had to replace a [poorly performing (clogged?) i960 printead with less years of printing on it than my current ip5000. Of course, anecdotal reporting of personal observation and experience with such a small sample is not definitive evidence one way or another. Perhaps Grandexp can shed some light with documentation he has read on the issue of nozzle size and clogging.

 

[mikling]

In theory, you can create gray by mixing all colors. Yes, in simple theory. Now think about what happens when you view these mixed colors in varying types of light with different spectral content. So you have a pattern of Cyan, Magenta, Yellow dots and you view this under a warm source and then view it under a cool source. would you have the same effect as viewing the same color produced with a pure gray ink or has some grey ink the content ? The science of mixing colors strategically to make the desired color more stable as viewed by humans under differing light conditions is a new frontier for all printer manufacturers and each has their feature name to this aspect. Might grey ink be a component in this technology? Think about it. What effects would happen if you messed with the same color but placed the dots in a different matrix pattern?

 

[Tin Ho]

In theory, you can create gray by mixing all colors. Yes, in simple theory. Now think about what happens when you view these mixed colors in varying types of light with different spectral content. So you have a pattern of Cyan, Magenta, Yellow dots and you view this under a warm source and then view it under a cool source. would you have the same effect as viewing the same color produced with a pure gray ink or has some grey ink the content ?

Mikling, when the lighting changes (warm, cold or else) the colors will change regardless the grey is printed with a grey dye, a mix of DMY dyes or with tiny droplets of CMY dyes at a high density. Are you suggesting that grey ink will be less affected by lighting conditions?

The science of mixing colors strategically to make the desired color more stable as viewed by humans under differing light conditions is a new frontier for all printer manufacturers and each has their feature name to this aspect.

What new frontier? Science of mixing colors strategically? Make colors more stable?

Might grey ink be a component in this technology? Think about it. What effects would happen if you messed with the same color but placed the dots in a different matrix pattern?

Could you elaborate more? Specifically what do you mean by "if you messed with the same color but placed the dots in a different matrix pattern".

 

[mikling]

Uh Huh

Radiance and OIG to name two and some homework on your own is sometimes necessary


I end it here

 

[Tin Ho]

Please don't just throw some terminologies. I am really disappointed. You posted something very technical and you will want to respond to questions or challenges to what you posted. This is a discussion forum. If you refuse to discuss then don't post. Is this your way out of unknown territory?

 

[Grandad35]

Please don't just throw some terminologies. I am really disappointed. You posted something very technical and you will want to respond to questions or challenges to what you posted. This is a discussion forum. If you refuse to discuss then don't post. Is this your way out of unknown territory?

Radiance and OIG to name two and some homework on your own is sometimes necessary

Mikling obviously has a lot of knowledge in this area and he DID respond in a clear and concise manner. Investing 30 seconds with Google gave this link for a description of OIG and this link for a discussion on radiance.

Color science and color management are obviously very complicated subjects that aren't easy to understand, but there are lots of references on the web for those interested in investing the time and effort to learn about them.

Negative comments don't engender a cooperative spirit from those whose help you are seeking.

 

[Redbrickman]

Just to sidetrack a bit, what has Canon got against printing long prints (panorama) that are longer than A3 plus?

I would have thought by now that they could take a leaf our of other manufacturers books and realise that people do actually want to print photos that are long and thin

 

[Tin Ho]

Grandad35, I am not an expert like Mikling is. He brought up a bunch of terminologies. So I asked:

Are you suggesting that grey ink will be less affected by lighting conditions?
What new frontier?
Science of mixing colors strategically?
Make colors more stable?
Could you elaborate more?
what do you mean by "if you messed with the same color but placed the dots in a different matrix pattern"?

The subject matter is really about the grey ink added by Canon to a few dye based printers. Those printers did not receive very high score from some reviews. As a consumer I do not want to take what the marketing pitches are saying. This is a perfect opportunity for Mikling to elaborate and prove what he said is not just a sales pitch. You may have a perfect understanding of Mikling's post (#22) but I don't and I believe not many forum members do.

Negative comments don't engender a cooperative spirit from those whose help you are seeking.

I did have a challenging attitude in my post. That's not the same as a negative comment. I apologize if it appeared to be like that. But I did find Mikling's post (#22) a bit of sales pitch too in my opinion. Unfortunately he chose not to prove me wrong, rather he thew a few more terminologies back.

By the way, the first link that describes OIG is a marketing pitch by Canon written by Canon. Canon has done sales pitches this way for many years and it is not a surprise that they threw something like this when they introduce a new product. If it is truly a great innovation why is there not one or some patents obtained for the OIG?

 

[mikling]

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=45363#p45363

Start at the above about a year ago and I would also be doing a sales pitch. Geez Tin Ho, you remain skeptical of everything I write. Lo and Behold. Yet, the very point of what I was stating was in fact pointing to the future direction of high performance desktop printers. Maybe I saw something and it REALLY was something that I noticed but many had not. Or maybe I was just blowing hot air at the time to sell more ink in a sales pitch. The readers can be the judge. Because the introduction of these two new printers over a year later says something. Don't you think so? Same reason why economist Nouriel Roubini was castigated by others when he predicted the GFC ( Great Financial Crisis) before it happened. The masses can be wrong and they were. I stick my neck out but there are always shooters.

Challenging? Hmmmm....

Color on inkjets is not just mixing ink like many think. Individual dots are printed on a matrix that we perceive as a particular color. These dots and the patterns used can interact with light to cause us to perceive things differently from just measurement alone. ( And this is one consideration of OIG, they appear to use aspects of how humans see color, in consideration of what colors are best used in a matrix ) Anyone printing B&W with color inks will have experienced that the color tone shifts markedly with different types of light. When grey inks are used, this shift is less but still there. Maybe this is what I see when I used the MP980 with color prints. The print tells the story regardless of what we THINK we know. The difference is subtle and sometimes not.
There are all kinds of technical terms for this ( one of them metameric failure) except that the science of minimizing this effect is pretty new. Whatever term the mfrs call it, it is an area that they are looking at. The first printer to present this consideration and call it something ( Epson Radiance) was the Epson R2880 and R1900.
Canon's response is OIG...they explain OIG in a way that supposedly mere humans will understand or appreciate but there is no doubt to me, that it is their version of Epson Radiance.

Another consideration is that if grey inks was a flop according to the reviews then the mfrs would be better off putting out more crazy colors to extend gamut rather than fool everyone with grey inks. Yet, more models are introduced with gray inks. So what's up Tin Ho? explain that one please.please. Why didn't these expert reviewers appreciate the breaking of ground when the grey inks was used. I'd think these reviewers were not on the ball and could not appreciate the subtleties of the image. So how much weight would you place on that review today?

The ability to create more colors with the same set of inks is seldom acknowledged but until you see the results, then you begin to understand that there is a lot more to putting color to paper than sticking ink into a cartridge. That is the science of different RIPs and is intriguing in itself. So you think different RIPS don't have different strategies of mixing colors?

There's serious brainpower involved in this thing called an inkjet printer that we pay so little for considering the technology behind it..so given the relatively low cost of this technical marvel, why would I care about a sales pitch by the mfr that would not hurt me if I ignored it ?Hey, know what, that person that wrote the sales pitch for Canon, It's their job, it's their dignity. We should not denigrate salespersons it's their job. I appreciate what the engineers are doing and the thinking behind it but that does not necessarily mean I can explain it because I can't. I see the results and that speaks for itself. I don't just read about it on the internet and then challenge others based on what I read or can link to. Get your hands dirty buy different printers and see for yourself. Pay your dues and then come to the table to discuss what YOU found.

Remember one thing folks, some reviewers are paid to review a printer one day and then a smartphone another day and then a wireless mouse the next. The following day they might have an article that refilling ink cartridges will seriously cause the printer to blow up in smoke. It's their job to write. The multitude of serious posters on this forum pretty much know more about printers that most reviewers on consumer websites will ever know.

I relate this to the internet audiophile expert who can judge audio equipment based on reviews by others but have never really listened themselves or experienced it directly.

Oh Yeah, Can someone explain to me what I am pitching in #22 that will benefit me???????

Also look at #11, because I expected the same instigator of challenges....so predictable.

 

[websnail]

Quick 101 on asking for help (Note: context of a British man in his early(?) 40's and father of one little boy who is currently having to learn all about manners, sharing, etc...)

1. If you would like something explained, use of the words: "Please", "Thank-you" and/or variations of these terms is an excellent way to engender cooperation

2. Techniques that do not work, are; forgetting rule 1 and also attacking, criticising, and insulting the individual whose help you would like to encourage.


It's akin to trying take a horse for a ride with a blade of grass and a sharp tongue... The horse is sooner or later going to land you in the dirt if you keep yelling at, and hitting it... Talking nice to it, offering it incentives to do what you want will invariably work better...

For the record, this information could be applied to a host of people on this forum, who seem to take information, advice and insight for granted and forget that there is a cost in time, energy and effort to develop this knowledge and experience. Sometimes the commercial interests of the one with the knowledge help maintain that base of experience so even chucking in accusations about sales, marketing BS, etc... could do with a little better thinking through.

"Please", "Thank-you" and a little genuine respect are incredibly valuable currency in any human interaction... Try it out, you'll be amazed at just how effective it can be...

Nuff said.