Canon IP6700d and CIS system?

[Xalky]

I just bought a canon IP6700d printer and I'm a little frustrated with the ink refill situation. Coming from an IP5000 That just burned out it's second printhead I bit the bullet and bought the 6700d not fully realizing what a drag it was gonna be trying to get this thing to operate on cheap ink. I went ahead and bought some refill ink from Precision Colors http://home.eol.ca/~mikling/, haven't recieved it yet.

I'm looking at this system http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=330058204449&rd=1&rd=1 to try and keep things simpler. Any one have any experience with a cis on a chipped canon printer? Is there a better system out there for this printer? I use a lot of ink. Between my wife that prints 100s of photgraphs a month and myself with printing on cd and dvds and covers we ate up about 15-20 cartridges a month on the ip5000. I went with the canon again because of it's ability to print cds, plus until now, they were the cheapest printers to run. I'm almost regretting this purchase.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Xalky

 

[websnail]

In all honesty I have no idea as to how reliable the commercial CIS kits for any of the Canon printers although I have seen a few about. At the moment I'm waiting to find the time to review a kit for the iP4200 from a supplier in Hong Kong but that won't necessarily help you for the iP6700.

What I can tell you is that there are a few things to look for with these kits.

1. Support.. a lot of the ebay merchants are great pre-sales but clam up and offer no support at all when you've added your positive feedback so it's worth waiting till you get setup and running before you say "great service"

2. Look around for whether the kits you're getting are clone units (ie: part of a large reseller - usually Chinese) or if they include a well thought out system.

3. Especially important with the Canon units are the thin silicon grommets that need to be placed over the rubber grommets that enclosed the ink posts in the printhead. These are vital for ensuring a good leak free seal between the cartridge exit port and the printhead.. without that you get a CIS that doesn't work. Some may offer the older blocky silicon grommets that replace the rubber ones completely. Avoid these as they aren't reliable... I got a bunch of sets of these for my own kits and they've failed 1 for every 3 so far.

4. Make sure that the solution you're being sold is actually for your printer.. An example of this is the MP600 which has it's printhead retention lever reversed to the right side of the printhead carriage. An iP4200 kit is being offered for this unit but it's not entirely suitable.. A lot of the eBay CIS sellers don't care about the finer details.. they just know the cartridge fits and think that's fine. It isn't!

5. The most important thing in all of this is that you MUST take your time sourcing your ink... I would avoid eBay unless you have plenty of recommendations (not their ebay feedback!) that their ink is good quality.. There's lots of input on these forums as to where to buy that so take the time to research and save you time later..

6. It's well worth casting around for other users who have the iP6700 (I'm afraid I don't) and can shed a little light on potential problems for installing a CIS on your printer (potential tube trapping issues, etc..)..



If all else fails you can still opt for the whole refilling approach which with your turnover is quite a bit of work but it may be better than ripping your hair out trying to install a poor CIS.

Sorry I can't provide more targetted help on this one.

 

[Xalky]

Here's the installation manual http://help.echostore.com/CISS/continuous-ink-canon-IP4200-instruction.pdf. It sure looks like it was well thought out, but what do I know, this would be my first attempt at installing a CIS on a printer. The ink supplier in the URL above has been very informative and , I think he might be a member of this forum actually. He advised me against using any CIS system because of various problems incurred with pressure equalization and leaks.

I just read the unclogging canon printhead thread. Theres a lot of good info there. I might pull my ip5000 out of the closet and try the syringe method. I did the alcohol soaking overnight and it's still clogged. The IP5000 has 2 printheads that use the same cartridge for magenta. One is for standard print and the other only seems to kick in with certain programs or photo printing. Finer dispersion, I believe. It's the finer one that plugs up. after a few cleanings I'll get a small output with the test page routine but it won't print photos coprrectly unless it's in standard print mode. I know it's the fine dispersion nozzle thats plugged.

Xalky

 

[mikling]

Yes, I am a member and I have installed two CIS systems for myself and in each case I removed them eventually because they were too finicky for me. Given that you print a lot of pictures than I do, it may be worth the "potential" hassle. I say potential because I don't want to be called a liar in the event you install one and it is trouble free. However as websnail has pointed out, there are a lot of finer details that many but not all of these systems haven't totally debugged. I think many people get caught up in the idea of no more refills then jump for them. It's like the 100,000 mile tuneup..... does anyone who even remotely knows how to maintain a car believe this???? the same with trouble free plug and play CIS .

What I would say though is that if you intend to use one and you have to use the printer frequently, then a backup printer might be recommended in case you run into an issue while debugging and your wife needs the printer.

Xalky did buy my ink off Ebay and it is one of the finest inks .... websnail. Image Specialists.... and I think no one can make derogatory remarks on that brand. I offer one of the finest quality inks on Ebay and that is really good as more people wanting to refill, can at least get the good stuff there and have an enjoyable experience rather than buying dodgy stuff and be stuck with problems.

Millions and millions of people buy items from discounters like Walmart. Because Walmart sells some inexpensive items does not necessarily mean that you cannot buy quality items from there as well. The same with Ebay, the buyer has to check and can be rewarded with great merchandise at a good price.

I did lay out the options for xalky that CIS can sometimes have issues and some work may be needed in fiddling. I'm sure there are many satisfied users of CIS bought from Ebay and many dissatisfied as well. In the end I told Xalky that installing CIS systems with support by email or phone can make enemies of the best of friends because there could be so many small things to look out for. That is why I currently don't sell them because the level of risk to ensuring customer satisfaction is too great.

 

[websnail]

Xalky did buy my ink off Ebay and it is one of the finest inks .... websnail. Image Specialists.... and I think no one can make derogatory remarks on that brand. I offer one of the finest quality inks on Ebay and that is really good as more people wanting to refill, can at least get the good stuff there and have an enjoyable experience rather than buying dodgy stuff and be stuck with problems.

In truth mikling I didn't know you were the ebayer in question nor did I know of any ebay seller who used Image Specialists inks so I guess knowing it now it's put my general opinion of ebay sellers back a little ways .. Nice to know someone doesn't just dump and run.

I did lay out the options for xalky that CIS can sometimes have issues and some work may be needed in fiddling. I'm sure there are many satisfied users of CIS bought from Ebay and many dissatisfied as well. In the end I told Xalky that installing CIS systems with support by email or phone can make enemies of the best of friends because there could be so many small things to look out for. That is why I currently don't sell them because the level of risk to ensuring customer satisfaction is too great.

Probably wise..

As far as the 6600 model printer goes I think the biggest headache is likely to be the fact that the display and buttons are integrated into the lid so the solution needs to be treated a lot like a multifunctional model which ups the complexity.


As to putting CIS's into Canons, I reached the conclusion a while ago that it would be unwise to sell kits although I was considering it, purely because of the number of potential problems caused by the printer design, inkjet nozzle size and the associated issues of properly sealing between the cartridge and the printhead... It's a nightmare that after months of experimentation I'm still getting to grips with.

 

[Xalky]

I sure don't want to start a argument here. I just wanna learn.

Websnail, did you look at the kit in question? It looks like at least one of the issues, sealing between the cartridge and the printhead, is not really an issue with this particular kit.
Yes on the 6700d, it looks like some printer housing modifications might be necessary. I'm up for it.

A little about my background: My education is mechanical engineering. I worked in engineering after I graduated but I quickly got bored with it. I was born and raised in the Construction business, and I run my own General contracting business now. I've been building and modifying cars and trucks for fun since I was old enough to drive. I have lots of tools and I know how to use them. Cutting a hole into the side of my printer doesn't scare me...it might be fun. I'd be willing to collaborate and take pictures of the installation and post them here.

That being said. I'm looking for guidance. Who makes the best kit for this printer? Has anyone here installed one yet, on a 6600/6700? If not I'd be willing to be the guinea pig with your help and guidance.

I paid $150 for the printer. I've pissed away more money on dinner. I also just spent $95 on a 6 cartridge set of OEM ink.... That's Unacceptable!!

Once the install is complete, I'm hoping for ease of use, less frequent ink filling, reliability and cheap to operate. Can it be done?

Xalky

 

[websnail]

I sure don't want to start a argument here. I just wanna learn.

Me either so worry not.. plenty of differences of opinion on here but I think we all listen, learn and admit our inaccuracies whenever we realise.

Websnail, did you look at the kit in question? It looks like at least one of the issues, sealing between the cartridge and the printhead, is not really an issue with this particular kit.

I haven't looked at that particular kit in person but I do know the following:

1. The chinese clone CIS's tend to be unreliable in so much as the reservoir bottles can leak due to their design.. Your best ditching those and using some standard 4oz bottles as reservoirs instead.

2. The seal between cartridge exit port and the printhead is the key point for failure with the Canon kits so you'll want some kind of grommet there.. I've recently managed to find a supplier who's sending me some .5mm and 1mm thick sheets of silicon rubber for me to test out with my own hand cut grommets (using some leather punch tools). Given your background you will probably be able to to come up with something similar

3. If the cartridges on the kit you're looking at are the same type as those in the ip4200 instructions you linked to then the thing to watch out for is soiling the LED on the chips when you transfer them over.. You'd be wise to check out the instructions of other CIS manufacturers to be sure that you don't end up with the dreaded error 6502 which indicates a problem with the ink sensor.
http://www.rihac.com.au/instructions/canon/IP4200.pdf
The link above is very useful as it explains a few of the mounting issues and ways round them (ref: page 7).

4. Stick to the ink that mikling is supplying you with... Image Specialists is good stuff and reliable whereas the chinese stuff tends to be poor quality and prone to clogging.. something I experienced recently with a bad batch form an I.S. reseller

Yes on the 6700d, it looks like some printer housing modifications might be necessary. I'm up for it.

Something I found worked well on the MP500 may be applicable here... You'll need to find a way to hold the lid up enough to stop the tubing being crimped by the lid and probably need something else to hold the lid open/closed sensor in the "closed" position.. Doubtless you'll figure that out and will have the oddments around to handle that.

A little about my background: My education is mechanical engineering. I worked in engineering after I graduated but I quickly got bored with it.

Oh good grief... If anyone fits the "must be mad to try this" you're it ... and I mean that in the sense that I've wrecked more printheads and printers in the search for solutions than is good for anyone so I'm describing myself too here

If you get anywhere with it then I'd welcome a write up on www.continuousink.info for anyone else who decides they want to try too

 

[Xalky]

OK. Thanks that link was very helpful. Now we're getting somewhere.

It almost looks like I can build one of these from stuff I can pickup locally.

Wouldn't it be better to use an OEM cartridge and affix some hose barbs to the top of the cartridge?. That way you don't have to mess with moving the chips over to the new cartridges. I could also seal the vent in the OEM cartridge which would essentially make it airtight.

I can see that the reservoirs,and hose might be difficult to obtain, but you're telling me that a 4oz bulk ink bottle would work just as well.

Hoses? Where could I get the right hose?

It seems to me that you want the cartridge in the printer to pull a vacuum as the ink is used up so that it can pull ink from the reservoir. Is that correct? Along those lines, you want the reservoir to allow air intake at the top to replace the lost ink. Is that correct?

The system must be sealed starting from the printhead-cartridge seal all the way back to the reservoir output so as not to pull in air from the outside and to maintain a vacuum, or at least equal pressure such as would be found in a siphon system. Is that correct? Now, it's apparent to me why the seals at the printhead-cartridge is critical. Leakage there will cause all the ink in the cartridge to leak out as it gets replaced with air. It would also break the siphon between the reservoir and the cartridge.

Am I on the right track so far?

Xalky

 

[mikling]

If you're really into it, and you're a mechanical engineer then I'm sure that you understand the principles ( I am also a mekanicle engineur ( you know the spelling issues) and I also got bored with it within two years of graduating.

The principle most of the better CIS systems use is the Mariotte bottle. Intrinsically it tries to deliver a constant head at a fixed flow. Now since we both are graduates, the mariotte principle works with constant flow. It cannot do what it does in a static situation. Nor can it do it with impulses.

Here are the issues and some more that trained Mech Engs will see with CIS.

First as I described above. Those under just a bottle with a siphon are depending on the tolerance of the head design for proper operation. The delivered head is too different from start to finish.

Many CIS are just randomly switched from dyebase to pigment inks. The mariotte principle relies on the Reynolds number and if I remember right, the properties of the fluid which is different from dye and pigment will change the Reynolds number. Thus what works with one can't for the other.

The delivery of ink is actually very critical. As I once pointed out before in another thread, there is a three way equilibrium in a Canon cartridge. The inkjet chamber, the sponge and the tank reservoir. While there is tolerance within the design, it can go out and cause some printing issues if not looked at carefully. The printhead is a true jet and once you understand the hydraulics involved in a jet engine you'll see that the newer finer Canon printheads are going to be more "picky" or there is less tolerance for improper feed of inks.

That said, how do you go about designing a good system. First look at the mariotte bottle and you'll realize that all things equal, the head pressure is a function of the relative heights of the two tubes. My advice is to make the air feed tube telescopic that way you can instantly adjust the head pressure to the cartridge without moving the tanks. NO systems in existence use this principle.....yet. This allows you to trim the pressure per color as required.

To get around the issue that the mariotte bottle only works with flow, you need to worry about putting too much pressure on the ink chambers under no flow so ink does not ooze out. The fix.... Archimedes principle. Float the individual bottle tanks in water and make sure the water level remains constant. So you adjust the no flow pressure by Archimedes to the point the inkhead doesn't ooze nor does the ink columns draw ink FROM the head ( That'll cause a head burnout if you're not careful and go printing)

To maintain proper flow you adjust the air inlet tube into the tank to the point you get no banding and even color. Each color may need a different setting.

Sounds like a lot of "things" to adjust to get it right... you betcha. Too much hassle for me.... I don't print enough to justify it. Anything more simplified is playing with the tolerances of the design of the head and you never know when you are just over it and that explains why some work and some don't. Hey if you're lucky, and your simple build stays within the tolerances.... it'll work and you'll say why do I need all that complexity.

BTW, the refillable no sponge cartridges also work on the Mariotte, now go figure that the mfrs say they're good for pigment and dye.

That's why I always recommend OEM cartridges for good reliable performance, there's more detailed engineering in there than meets the untrained eye.

 

[Xalky]

I understand the dynamics involved especially on the suction side of things, and forcing the printhead to suck dry or not enough ink. It's not really designed to suck. I'd imagine that the cartridge/printhead design is more tailored to hold back a slight head pressure without leakage. If you think about it, there is a slight head pressure that exists with a full oem cartridge. So if you are to err it would be on the side of positive head pressure. How much head pressure before it leaks is the question.

It would seem to me that a reservoir system that is only as tall as the height of the actual cartridges set at the same height as the cartridge within the printer that this problem could be negated completely by falling within the tolerances that the print head was designed to deal with. This alone would seem to be an improvement over the existig cis systems already on the market. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is the motto I like to use. It's a phrase I use and it's not directed at anyone here...believe me. The simplest ideas are usually the best ones.

If you do it this way, you could in effect leave the vent in the cartridge. The fill tube for the cartridge would have to go to the bottom of the cartridge and always be submersed in ink as well as in the reservoir. This would be a simple siphon system. It doesn't get any simpler than that. I'm I missing something here.

Xalky