Canon ip4200 CIS - returning to the fray!

[canonfodder]

Websnail,

Thank you for your answer. I remain very interested in getting a successful CIS for the iP4200. I now have a couple of spare iP4200s and will soon have some extra empty cartridges to work with.

I plan to try a system which has the ink feed tube enter the cartridge sponge area through the air vent actual entry point, located just 1 inch forward of the cartridge rear end. I will be working with the ink feed tube going right on down to the bottom, as Grandad35 has suggested. My experiments so far look better when no air can go back up the ink tube toward the bottle, and having the ink tube go to the cartridge bottom provides that. Of course "looking better" in a bench experiment may not prove to be better in a real CIS setup.

I also will be trying a system which keeps the ink level in the bottle at a constant relation to the cartridge bottom elevation. This is to provide a constant zero pressure level at the sponge chamber bottom, as the Canon Pixma cartridge does with its internal "chicken waterer" or Marriotte's Bottle scheme. I am hoping that this approach will prevent problems of air leaks at the exit port seals. Perhaps the ink pumps will be happier too? I think so, but things don't always go as I think. :/

 

[canonfodder]

Websnail,

At the beginning of this post about CIS troubles, you said, in part:

.........................

It may not be the cartridge end that's causing me problems...

You see, today I was working with two printers that had been working just fine for over 4 months, I simply unscrewed the bottles tops for each reservoir and topped them up before replacing the tops and screwing them back on.
........................

This last line stood out when I re-read it and I have to ask a question:

Do you ever, sometimes, or never, clamp the ink tube when you are going to unscrew the bottle top and do a refill?

Some of my experiments indicate that it might be a good idea to use clamps. Otherwise it seems I lose control of how much (or preferably how little) air enters the cart when it is back to printing.

 

[websnail]

Apologies to all for the long delay in responding to anything but as it turned out it was probably for the best as yesterday was a "EUREKA!!" moment.

Actually, imagine a grown adult dancing round an IT lab and then having to stop because the teacher and children were all looking at him funny.. *ahem*


Anyway... I think I've worked out the problem...

"Too much pressure!"


Yeah, I know... Rather than give you the whole boring monologue about the why's and wherefores, the skinny is simple... As with normal CIS's you can't let the ink level go more than about an inch above the level of the BOTTOM of the printhead. If you do you get what looks like an ink starvation problem when in fact what seems to be happening is that too much ink is being pulled into the head as it's trying to heat up a bubble and you get the equivalent of a damp squib or misfire.

It's a wild assed guess but here's what I did to find this out.

1. Take printer that's been printing pretty well and has only got around 1 inch of ink left in the bottle... Top off bottle until it's reasonable full (note: ink level in bottle is now approx 4 inches above base of printer).

2. Try printing something... Instantly you see the ink starvation weirdness or almost faded out colours.

Solution (and this is why I tried yesterday):
Get a ream of paper and put the printer on top of this, leaving ink reservoir bottles on desk. Print off 4 pages of high quality purge images (one of each colour).


I went through this and it took about 10 seconds into my purge printing that I realised that the printouts were back to full colour, no fading, no banding, nothing... It seemed to need the purge though to sort out its equilibrium and interestinly enough the black (pigment) was less happy with this arrangement with some minor banding starting to appear.


Did this with three different printers and blow me, if it doesn't work with every single one.



At a guess, if you're using a mariotte bottle arrangement you're unlikely to hit the same issues I have and I couldn't swear that my theory is accurate or even in the right neighbourhood but it seems that once you've gotten shot of the cartridge to printhead seal issues and any other lingering air leak problems you really only need to have some low profile ink bottles to resolve the rest.

Only took, what? a year to figure this blasted thing out?!!!!

 

[canonfodder]

Websnail,

Your new messages mark a welcome return of your information and comments.

In my last post I had asked a question in which I said:

"Do you ever, sometimes, or never, clamp the ink tube when you are going to unscrew the bottle top and do a refill?"

When you get a chance I would like to know.

In my bench top experiments, I find that clamping the ink tube before unscrewing the bottle from its cap can leave the ink in the ink tube intact with usually no new air, (or at least a very little), introduced to the ink tube.

With rather careful measurements, I find the inside bottom of a cartridge in printing position at an elevation of 3.620 inch (9.195 cm) above the printer table top. I will be running printer tests with the top of the bottle ink at that level, and then at levels above and below that level.

Thanks, CF

 

[websnail]

In my bench top experiments, I find that clamping the ink tube before unscrewing the bottle from its cap can leave the ink in the ink tube intact with usually no new air, (or at least a very little), introduced to the ink tube.

Ah... I usually don't take the dip tube or lid out as the lids on my bottles are wide neck and there's plenty of space to fill the bottles. The net effect is the same as clamping the tubes so no air gets into the tubing.

With rather careful measurements, I find the inside bottom of a cartridge in printing position at an elevation of 3.620 inch (9.195 cm) above the printer table top. I will be running printer tests with the top of the bottle ink at that level, and then at levels above and below that level.

Be interesting to see what you find out.

FWIW: I've found that the printer only needs to be elevated an inch to work properly (with 100ml bottles) and it's interesting to note that the black pigment ink seems to prefer a little more pressure than the others although it still works fine.

 

[Crihz]

Only took, what? a year to figure this blasted thing out?!!!!

Well..someone else already figured that out a long time ago. Check this link, it has pics of an "elevated" ip3000 and a description of the problem: http://www.9to6.co.uk/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=77

Not trying to be smart here. Just want to let you know you are right.

Chris

 

[websnail]

Only took, what? a year to figure this blasted thing out?!!!!

Well..someone else already figured that out a long time ago. Check this link, it has pics of an "elevated" ip3000 and a description of the problem: http://www.9to6.co.uk/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=77

Not trying to be smart here. Just want to let you know you are right.

Isn't that always the way?... Ah well, at least I now know... Galling though as I described the problem on about 5 different forums and nobody had a clue... *gah*...

C'est la via..

 

[websnail]

Heh heh.. I'm one happy individual... The pesky pressure issue has definitely been the prime cause for my gnashing teeth and constant wailing..

I installed another CIS today on my iX4000 (A3 printer) and it's working a treat... Doesn't matter than I'm using smaller ID (inner diameter) tubing, it just works.. Small issue of resolving a small air leak/seal on the yellow cartridge but overall, working fine..

 

[ocular]

I admire your persistance. I have 2xIP3000 and 4 xMP730 running with CIS and it has been a long journey over 3 yrs. I have commented on this forum before. I have experienced the too much ink phenomemon presenting as though there is ink starvation. This was particularly noticeable when filling the reservoirs and the tubing wasn't clamped.

It does seem odd that more attention isn't given the height of the reserviors relative to the printer by the CIS manufacturers. The generic "level with the printer" does not fit all as the actual height of the inkjet cartridges varies from model to model. I position my CIS reservoirs in such away that when full the top of the ink column in the reservoirs is 2cm below the top of the ink jet cartridges. In the IP3000 I put the rersvoir on a 3cm stand. But on the MP730 they go on the desktop equal with the MP730. This is enough to maintain some negative pressure to prevent too much forward flow into the printhead. I am surprised that the IP4200 needs elevation as much as one ream of paper ( but I haven't got one setup with CIS).

Of course the higher the printer the greater the stress put on the cartridge / printhead seal - a weak point that Canon CISS users are well aware of and of course has resulted in the fitting of some sort of seal.

Another variable is how full you keep the inkjet cartridges when primed at installation of the CIS. I try and keep mine full - like the OEM standalone cartrides , because with a CIS fitted air may accumulate with time. If this happens this is the same as elevating the ink resrvoirs.

Sponge vs spongeless cartridges and the varying height of the ink in the reservoir as the printer is used ( a dynamic factor) , and the type of reservoir are other factors that can influence the flow.

 

[websnail]

Thanks for those insights Ocular... I hadn't realised that the air bubble in cartridges might also create the same elevated ink effect and that might answer an "odd" problem I've got with one other printer.

Re: the Mp730.. I see the exact same thing on my MP830 but not the MP500's. That said I have my doubts it's nothing more than a glitch in the matrix