Anyone know the dilution ratio of Epson PK to LK and LLK blacks?

W. Fisher

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Getting some PK black dye and clear dye ink today. Planning to mix the up for the Epson 3880 I unclogged.

I get the Magenta and Cyan seems to be a 1:3 for the LM and LC, but what about the two blacks?

Tia.

W.F.
 

W. Fisher

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No one?

Found an old Kodak densitometer among my old film junk and tried some Cone dye as a reference in the sandwich-plate gizmo (Might be a 0.003" U-shaped gap in it?).

LK = 7:1 Clear to PK Black ratio to match the Cone LK dye ink.

LLK = 17:1 Clear to PK Black ratio to match the Cone LLK dye ink.

Dunno, but guess I'll try a load in those two positions. Need lot of Clear ink maybe...

I'll use the 3:1 for the LM and LC and see how it goes.

Fwiw, I'm trying out the BCH Technologies Premium Dye inks. They sell a dye and pigment Clear Ink both on their website that might be around 100ml in size (They don't specify the bottle size so I ordered three in case.). The PK, M,C, and Y are in 500ml bottles.

W.F.
 

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W. Fisher

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It was one of my projects in 2015, when I researched several dilution ratios, sadly for the 8-color set only in theory, the 6-color sets also in practice. Remember your contribution?

https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/dye-or-pigment-ink-for-3880-question.9896/page-2
Yeah, that was back in my experimental K7 era. Honestly, I was not impresed with the entire K7 ink thing as I never did like the set tones on some papers so I ended up using the other 3880 loaded with pigment and doing the B&W through it.

Now that x-rite redid their i1 Studio software to also do ICM profiles for B&W prints with their ColorMunki or i1 Photo Pro heads, seems pointless to go the K7/Piezo/B&W inksets route again unless just for the math curve exercises and fun in QTR, etc.

Anyhoo, I found 3 bottles of their Clear Dye Ink (100ml) was just enough to fill the carts after the major flushing. Had to order another 5 bottles of Clear Ink as there is quite a bit in the 500ml colors and black to run for a while, just not enough Clear Dye Ink for the LM, LC, LLK, LK dilutions.

Below is the QTR Calibration where I had loaded the Cone Thrift Dye ink (or whatever it's called) in the top photo out of the 3880. Photo under it is the new mix with the BCH inks in it now. Their PK Black looks abit black overall, but the others are a pretty close match with the cut/dilution ratios above. I used 50ml Clear Dye to 17ml of the Magenta and Cyan Dye bottles for a total of 67ml into the tanks (3:1 ratio) for the LM and LC inks.

This is my mix:
Epson 3880 Dye Ink Mixes using BCH Technologies Premium Dye Inks:

PK Black = Full Strength BCH Technologies Black Premium Dye
Light Black (LK) = 50ml Clear Dye + 7ml Black Premium Dye
Light Light Black (LLK) = 50ml Clear Dye + 3ml Black Premium Dye
Magenta = Full Strength Magenta Premium Dye
Light Magenta (LM) = 50ml Clear Dye + 17ml Magenta Premium Dye
Cyan = Full Strength Cyan Premium Dye
Light Cyan (LC) = 50ml Clear Dye + 17ml Cyan Premium Dye
Yellow = Full Strength Yellow Premium Dye


W.F.
 

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Getting some PK black dye and clear dye ink today. Planning to mix the up for the Epson 3880
@W. Fisher, it’s not just a matter of diluting the black down with a clear solution, because of all the inks, grey is by far the hardest colour to achieve success with, and by changing the test paper this can cause your new grey ink colour to not look so good anymore.

If you start remember to add the black ink to the clear solution and not the other way around, otherwise you may end up with a bucketfull of slightly murky black ink...
 

W. Fisher

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@W. Fisher, it’s not just a matter of diluting the black down with a clear solution, because of all the inks, grey is by far the hardest colour to achieve success with, and by changing the test paper this can cause your new grey ink colour to not look so good anymore.

If you start remember to add the black ink to the clear solution and not the other way around, otherwise you may end up with a bucketfull of slightly murky black ink...
I made up a color and B&W profile for the Epson Glossy, Epson Luster, and the cheapo Costco Kirkland paper I use for testing. So far so good with the BCH inks. Their black has no bronzing but it does have a bluish tint whereas the Claria dye seems to be greenish. I suspect that the x-rite iStudio software is mixing a bit of other colors to the blacks once the icm profile is made. If it does mix, hoping the grays will be neutral too.

Didn't have any issue with the dilutions, but I did mix with the clear dye base first and added the black, magenta, and cyan dye cuts after the clear was in the bucket.

Will try some prints today and see. Just got an email from BCH that 5 spare bottles of clear ink is enroute that I ordered last night. Wish the clear was in a larger bottle than 100ml, maybe same size as the 500m ink bottles. Sure fast for cheap $3.95 postage where it came USPS in 3 days crossing the USA. Seems like Amazon Prime shipping almost.

Thing that surprised me is why they offer a pigment clear and dye clear both? I would think a clear ink would be good for both, but maybe not.

W.F.
 
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PeterBJ

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Thing that surprised me is why they offer a pigment clear and dye clear both? I would think a clear ink would be good for both, but maybe not.
Different properties of the ink base liquid might be needed for keeping a dye dissolved and keeping a pigment in suspension.
 

martin0reg

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...
This is my mix:
Epson 3880 Dye Ink Mixes using BCH Technologies Premium Dye Inks:

PK Black = Full Strength BCH Technologies Black Premium Dye
Light Black (LK) = 50ml Clear Dye + 7ml Black Premium Dye
Light Light Black (LLK) = 50ml Clear Dye + 3ml Black Premium Dye
Magenta = Full Strength Magenta Premium Dye
Light Magenta (LM) = 50ml Clear Dye + 17ml Magenta Premium Dye
Cyan = Full Strength Cyan Premium Dye
Light Cyan (LC) = 50ml Clear Dye + 17ml Cyan Premium Dye
Yellow = Full Strength Yellow Premium Dye
....
This ratios for LK and LLK seems to be very similar to one of my project calcullations
...
The folllowing two sets for the epson 3880 I have not tried in practice yet, only calculated from the other sets and stepwedges made by user RogerB with QTR and alternatives from other sources, including paul roark.

- project "DL c6k3" (color dye set for epson 8colors printers, e.g. pro3880)
My calculation is as follows:
LC: 33%
LM: 25% (or 33%)
LK: 50% (or 30% ?? /see below)
LLK: 15% (or 9-12% ?? /see below)
...
So if you have results, please tell us about "color maching", or how the actual ink set prints out
- by only setting the epson driver
- and how good it can get with profiling
 

W. Fisher

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This ratios for LK and LLK seems to be very similar to one of my project calcullations

So if you have results, please tell us about "color maching", or how the actual ink set prints out
- by only setting the epson driver
- and how good it can get with profiling
This calibration software is another matter. They all are different depending on your choice of poison, but just which is better is personal..I guess.

I used Epson Glossy Paper and the BCH Premium Dye ink as above and made a couple of profiles using both the x-rite software (i1 Studio and i1 Profile both) and the BasICColor Catch 5/dropRGB 2 software.

In ColorThink Pro 3, their Profile Inspector shows that BasICColor Catch 5 gamut volume is 703,882 while the i1 Profiler gamut volume is lower at 677,704. The attached 3D shows the wireframe of the BasICColor profile to have a bit more of the greens and reds (The solid color is the x-rite software).

The x-rite i1 software, both i1 Profiler and iStudio, seems to be more contrasty verses the BasICColor Catch 5/dropRGB 2. Skin tone looks better with the BasICColor, imho, even when scanning the visually under a Fiilex V70 color viewing lamp at 3K, 4K, 5K and 6.5K Kelvin (I think the 5K Kelvin looked best, but the monitor is D50 set too.).

Difference could be the x-rite software generates the images and prints within, especially the second chart in their new iStudio wheich generates the second copy based on what the first scan does. With BasICColor, I normally print their charts using Qimage Ultimate as they are already made images and ready-to-print.

Same x-rite hardware (i1 PhotPro2 spectro.) used in i1 Profiler and BasICColor both. Colormunki Photo used with iStudio.

I guess, for me now, I'll stay with BasICColor Catch 5 plus dropRGB 2. I don't know what they have done with their recent update but maybe it was for the better as far as skin tone matters. I wasn't pleased with either of the x-rite software profiles, but probably wouldn't matter if it were non-people use like landscapes or whatever. For what it's worth, I also have the x-rite ColorTrue on my Samsung and iPad tablets and the reds seem to be too much on them so I leave it off. Those profiles were made with their i1 Display Pro.

W.F.
 

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martin0reg

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Thanks for these insights in profiling and software.
But how does the epson paper come out of the 3880 if you let the driver / menu manage the colors? In other words how does the custom made ink set print out without custom profile?
I know you need a profile with self diluted 3rd party ink, but I'm curious how far away are the colors of this ink set from the OEM ink set?
 
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