Question for jtoolman, setting up my 3880 Cone Carts

[3dogs]

Joe,
I am just unpacking a couple of sets of Cone Carts. My plan is to set them up as you outline in your video Top fill so to avoid too much removal. Being a bit cautious and avoiding costly "assumptions" I could sure use a bit of your time one on one, if you could spare the time please.

First up the cart.
Do I have to use a jig to do the drilling operation? or will simple guides be good enough?
If I need a jig do I need to mark a depth on the drill bit. I ask this because I am not exactly clear if I drill through just the outer skin or both the outer AND inner.
Does cone sell the plugs, or do they come from elsewhere?

In the drilling process itself, how do you avoid plastic swarf getting inside the cart. If it does, how do you get it out.

With the ink.

I have been keeping the ink agitated, but still the stuff froths real easy. I have 1Lit bottles and have found the yellow to be the best to see what is happening. My latest method is to gently lay the bottles on their side and ROLL. So, to the question, foaming is that normal, how much effort do I need to take to avoid it?
Is it better to split the bulk into say 100 or 250mls?

Finally, I have a fair bit of OEM ink in the carts still. I am thinking to suck it out and blend it in with the initial Cone refill as my plan is to use a plain white heavy (250gsm) Xerox inkjet paper designed for printing leaflets for making all my initial trials with the 3880 . I do not mind that colour control will be all over the place because it is just practice for now. Once I work my way through all the blended inks I will do a 100% Cone refill and start doing profiles for the Fine Art papers I like to use. In this I am thinking that Bob P did himself a big favour in running his trials, and I am guessing that you have done exactly the same.

I also want to KNOW what I have and how it works.

Many thanks in advance

Andrew

 

[jtoolman]

Joe,
I am just unpacking a couple of sets of Cone Carts. My plan is to set them up as you outline in your video Top fill so to avoid too much removal. Being a bit cautious and avoiding costly "assumptions" I could sure use a bit of your time one on one, if you could spare the time please.

THIS MODIFICATION IS PURELY EXPERIMENTAL AND YOU WOULD DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!

First up the cart.
Do I have to use a jig to do the drilling operation? or will simple guides be good enough?

I HAVE A COMPLETE MACHINE SHOP AND YES I USED A TILT VICE TO SET UP THE CARTS AT THE PROPER 45 DEGREE ANGLE.

If I need a jig do I need to mark a depth on the drill bit. I ask this because I am not exactly clear if I drill through just the outer skin or both the outer AND inner.
Does cone sell the plugs, or do they come from elsewhere?

YOU ARE DILLING INTO THE EMPTY INK CHAMBER. NO DEPTH STOP IS NEEDED AS LONG AS YOU CLEANLY DRILL THROUGH BOTH LAYERS.

In the drilling process itself, how do you avoid plastic swarf getting inside the cart. If it does, how do you get it out.

THE SHAVINGS DO TEN TO BE PULLED UP TOWARD THE OUTSIDE. THERE WILL BE A FEW BURRS POSIBLY CREATED WHICH YOU WOULD CAREFULLY CUT DOWN WITH A BRANDNEW RAZOR BLADE. YOU DO NOT WANT ANYTHING TO INTERFERE WITH THE SEALING OF THE HOLE. YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO COMPLETELY 100% SEAL YOUR HOLE, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PRESSURIZE THE CARTS AND YOU WILL RECIEVE AN ERROR MESSAGE. A 5/32" DRILL WILL WORK AND CAN BE PLUGGED WITH REGULAR COLOR MATCHED TABBED SILICONE PLUGS OFTEN FOUND INSTALLED ON REFILLABLES. IN FACT JUST LIKE THE ONES YOUR CARTS COME EQUIPED WITH.
A SECONDARY PROBLEM IF YOU GO THIS ROUTE IS THAT YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FILL TO THE VERY TOP. THE MAX YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO FILL IS ABOUT 65ML AS OPPOSED TO THE 80ML THESE CARTS ARE RATED FOR THOUGH I'VE ONLY GOTTEN ABOUT 70-75 ML IN THEM MAX.

ORIGINALLY I USED WHITE PLUGS JUST LIKE THEONES ON YOUR PRIMING PORT. I FOUND THEM TO NOT BE ABLE TO SECURELY SEAL THE 5/32" HOLES SO I SWITCHED TO THE COLORED ONES WHICH ON THE AVERAGE ARE A TINY BIT LARGER DIAMETER.


With the ink.

I have been keeping the ink agitated, but still the stuff froths real easy. I have 1Lit bottles and have found the yellow to be the best to see what is happening. My latest method is to gently lay the bottles on their side and ROLL. So, to the question, foaming is that normal, how much effort do I need to take to avoid it?
Is it better to split the bulk into say 100 or 250mls?

YES, INK WILL FOAM. WHEN THEY SAY TO AGITATE THEY ARE NOT SAYING TO SHAKE LIKE WHEN YOU MAKE A MARTINI. GENTLY SWIRLING THE BOTTLES UP AND DOWN A FEW TIMES IS PLENTY.
DO NOT FILL CARTS IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU AGITATE THE INK BOTTLE. IF YOU PREFER TO SPLIT THE INKS UP, THAT'S OK BUT IT'S REALLY NOT REQUIRED.

Finally, I have a fair bit of OEM ink in the carts still. I am thinking to suck it out and blend it in with the initial Cone refill as my plan is to use a plain white heavy (250gsm) Xerox inkjet paper designed for printing leaflets for making all my initial trials with the 3880 . I do not mind that colour control will be all over the place because it is just practice for now. Once I work my way through all the blended inks I will do a 100% Cone refill and start doing profiles for the Fine Art papers I like to use. In this I am thinking that Bob P did himself a big favour in running his trials, and I am guessing that you have done exactly the same.

I WOULD NOT MIX THEM. EVEN THOUGH CONE SWEARS THAT HIS INKS ARE 100% MATCH TO OEM, THEY ARE NOT? SPECIALLY THE VIVID MAGENTA.
A FRIEND JUST IS ABOUT AS KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT CONE INKS AS I EVER KNOW, DISCOVERED THAT MUCH TO HIS DISMAY.

HE IS CURRENTLY REPROFILING ALL HIS PAPERS ALL OVER AGAIN.

I also want to KNOW what I have and how it works.

Many thanks in advance

Andrew

AGAIN I STRESS THAT I WOLD THINK ABOUT DOING THIS MOD VER VER CAREFULLY AND LONG BEFORE JUMPING ON TO IT.
ONCE THOSE HOLES ARE DRILLED, YOU CAN NOT UNDO IT. THEY HAVE TO BE PERFECT DIAMETER SO THE PLUGS WILL SEAL THEM. AGAIN, THE 3880 AND 3800 PRESSURIZES THE CARTS SO YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO LOOSE PRESSURE DUE TO A LEAKY PLUGS.

GOOD LUCK.

TAKE LOOK AT MY PRINTROOM VISIT VIDEO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ARPQ74_9N0

JOE

 

[3dogs]

Mate! that is a quick response many, many thanks.

I was just typing the question to you while I had some Corn Flakes for breakfast earlier, then my wife called me down 'cos a BIG tree fell over in the horse paddock nearest the house, and she was afraid for him, that he may have been hurt!. All is well and I just quit cutting down the other half that did not fall......
This is the smaller half and it is 4ft in diameter and some 70 paces in length laying down on the ground........Came in for a cup of tea and checked in....Bingo there you are...BRILLIANT Thanks!

Ok I hear you. This IS experimental, so I take the chance of it not working!! However, if it does it will be great, and the worst that can happen is I mess up a couple of carts through not taking proper care? Well there is always a risk when experimenting and we learn from mistakes better than we learn from doing it right. My theory is knowing what NOT to do is an important part of knowing what to do to get a thing done right. I am not so worried about the capacity, it would be a SMALL inconvenience compared to being able to avoid lifting out the cart all the time.

Though I am thinking that the cost of replacing the Cone carts once in a while, adds some cost but overall the saving for me is huge to start with, so a full se replaced after a couple of years will be no big deal (I HOPE!!)

On the ink from the OEM carts I guess that becomes a throw away, not such a problem this time 'cos the machine was cheap as chips and I got two sets of OEM carts thrown in.

Thanks also for all the good information. I am assuming that I can get the spare plugs from Cone ( have not looked at the site for a while and cant remember if they are available as a spare part to purchase)

I will look at a cheap drill press, I have a need for one anyway so this jut adds a but more NEED so I get off my butt and quit talking about it and DO IT!!!!

Any tips for judging when to refill? I am guessing that it is a fine line between taking the Carts out too often and getting either the chip stuck or causing wear on the outlet nozzle.
I realize it depends so much on how much a person is printing, and a person will eventually get a feel for the right time to refill as time goes by, but the first couple will be a worry I am thinking.


Added.

Really like the Martini idea, shook the Martini, not the ink...................Now PrInTT inggg is SLUTC FUNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!






So, MANY MANY thanks I will post my progress.

Oh on progress, after SIX months the Study is now operational and the advice I got on storing the 3880 has kept the nozzles clear even tho we are having many 100 degree PLUS days and it is extremely dry too. However, by printing a nozzle check or two every couple of days has kept it running free.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[jtoolman]

I converted one set of carts to the top fill method, and fond that there was some variance in the diameters fo these plugs. Either my holes varied or the plugs. I deduced it was the plugs as some would fite very tight and some not so tight in the same hole.

Originally I used a 5/32" drill bit
You may or may not be aware that in a machine shop environment we use not only INCH diameters but also for inbetween sizes there are the Numbered and Letter size drill bits.
The rquivalnet in a numbered size for the 5/32 is .15625" so for the second set of carts I used a slightly smaller drill diamter #24 0.1520" which worked out great form the coloered tabbed plugs. They fit really tight ensuring a good seal.

So far neither 3800 has failed to produce the correct pressure and maintain it during continous printing.

Regards

Joe

 

[jtoolman]

I converted one set of carts to the top fill method, and found that there was some variance in the diameters of these plugs. Either my holes varied or the plugs did. I deduced it was the plugs as some would fit very snugly and some not so in the same hole.

Originally I used a 5/32" drill bit to drill my holes
You may or may not be aware that in a machine shop environment we use not only INCH and Metric diameters but also for inbetween sizes there are the Numbered and Letter size drill bits.
The equivalent diameter in a numbered size for the 5/32 is .15625"

So for the second set of carts I used a slightly smaller drill diamter: A #24 0.1520" which worked out great with the colored tabbed plugs. They fit really tight ensuring a good seal.

So far neither 3800 has failed to produce the correct pressure and more importantly, maintain it during continous printing.

Regards

Joe

 

[3dogs]

I was not aware of that at all, good info to have. I note in the video you have a carousel type set of plugs, where would I pick those up from?

I can imagine it wanting to be a GOOD snug fit as any leakage MAY (perhaps) cause issues with proper ink droplet delivery?

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[jtoolman]

That was my first set of plugs. The white round ones. They are identical to ones that already come with y9our carts and plug the priming port.
If the internal pressure in the cart cannot maintained, the printer will not run and will display an error code.
So is it important to have a leak proof plug? You bet!

Joe

 

[3dogs]

Ok! so now I can save the plugs for use later on.......good news.

Progress so far.......

Pro's

I got 4 carts into the machine so far

I THINK they are all primed

The printer recognised them and reset no comments no digital arguments from the printer software

Con's

The ink Name/Code on the 1Lit bottles and the Carts and the instructions are all different
eg. Epson cart says VLM, Cone cart says LM, and the bottle says VLM. A person has to ASSUME that LM and VLM are one and the same thing...
( not in my world) do it once and get it RIGHT peabrains. IF its VLM then put VLM on the cart not LM...they are supposed to be for the NEW INKS after all!!!!!!!!!

Instruction video and Supplied instructions differ. In the Video pull the prime plug insert the syringe and suck.......simple as 1-2-3 they say... read the instructions they say ( just as well I DID!!)

Oh no! do not do what they say..... no way Josey! that would be too ruddy easy.... READING the supplied instruction sheet is VITAL 'cos THESE carts have a supplied 'tool' to be added to the syringe that has to be stuffed into the ink outlet. It opens the outlet valve and holds it open while a person applies vacuum via the syringe, only one small problem the 'gizmo ' supplied, that pushes the ball valve out of the way fits the stopper ball exactly and its hellish hard
to get the cart primed because its almost impossible to draw ink out due to the fact that the ball valve stopper is totally blocking the syringe so a person is almost sucking the ball clear out of the cart and STILL not getting enough vacuum
to PRIME!!!!!!!!!!

The entire process of filling and Priming introduces SO much free air (no matter how slowly one injects ink) that it ends up looking like a jtoolman Martini convention inside the cart by the time one is finished!!!!

Washing the syringes, needles etc. is MESSY and fraught with contamination issues - its very scary if one has not done this a whole lot!!

In Conclusion

A very simple and straight forward process made complex by the new phenomenon (to me, at my age) of having so much development going so fast that the instructions that exist
are out of date by the time a person gets the new toy home....AND the corrupt and deceitful behaviour of Manufacturers in a "GLOBAL" world where they regionalise to prevent true globalisation
and worldwide common products and processes.

The OEM carts are showing near empty by the screen monitor, how one works out the 15% buffer I really do not know but there was only a small bit showing on the screen. I weighed the OEM cart that showed the least and it weighs over
100g the cart is 56g.

So! for me I say "up yours" to OEM's (again) you cant EVEN deliver indicative ink monitoring.....glad you are not designing the Apollo, just imagine where that would end up with THOSE clown messing with THAT!!

Next fill will be a soda, now that I have 'sorted' some of the issues with the carts and ink and tools I have.

Had I not had your support, I think I would have quit part way through this saga, and put it all in the TOO HARD basket. BUT because I knew that you are just a post away I had the confidence to push through..

I appreciate that..........THANKS for making yourself available and approachable.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[jtoolman]

Ok! so now I can save the plugs for use later on.......good news.

Progress so far.......

Pro's

I got 4 carts into the machine so far

I THINK they are all primed

The printer recognised them and reset no comments no digital arguments from the printer software

Con's

The ink Name/Code on the 1Lit bottles and the Carts and the instructions are all different
eg. Epson cart says VLM, Cone cart says LM, and the bottle says VLM. A person has to ASSUME that LM and VLM are one and the same thing...
( not in my world) do it once and get it RIGHT peabrains. IF its VLM then put VLM on the cart not LM...they are supposed to be for the NEW INKS after all!!!!!!!!!

WHERE ARE THESE INKS FROM AGAIN? THEY ARE PIGMENT RIGHT? IF YOU PURCHASED 3880 CARTS FROM CONE, THE LABELS SHOULD INDICATE VLM. ONLY THE 3800 CARTS WOULD SAY VM. HAVE YOU INSTALLED THOSE YET?
IF THE ANSWER IS YES AND YOU HAD NOT RECOGNITION PROBLEMS THEN DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. BUT I THOUGHT THE CHIPS FOR THE 3800 AND THE 3880 WERE DIFFERENT.
MAYBE THE PIGGYBACK CONTROLLER CHIP IS THE SAME FOR BOTH. NOT SURE.

Instruction video and Supplied instructions differ. In the Video pull the prime plug insert the syringe and suck.......simple as 1-2-3 they say... read the instructions they say ( just as well I DID!!)

Oh no! do not do what they say..... no way Josey! that would be too ruddy easy.... READING the supplied instruction sheet is VITAL 'cos THESE carts have a supplied 'tool' to be added to the syringe that has to be stuffed into the ink outlet. It opens the outlet valve and holds it open while a person applies vacuum via the syringe, only one small problem the 'gizmo ' supplied, that pushes the ball valve out of the way fits the stopper ball exactly and its hellish hard
to get the cart primed because its almost impossible to draw ink out due to the fact that the ball valve stopper is totally blocking the syringe so a person is almost sucking the ball clear out of the cart and STILL not getting enough vacuum
to PRIME!!!!!!!!!!


PRIMING THROUGH THE PRIMING PORT IS ENOUGH. DON'T WORRY. JUST PRIMED THAT WAY LIKE YOU SO IN MY VIDEO AND IT WILL BE ALLRIGHT.
THE PRIMING TIP FOR PRIMING THROUGH THE PORT IS A BIT TRICKY, YOU INSERT THE TIP AND COCK THE SYRINGE A BIT TO ONE SIDE. THEN APPLY VACCUUM.



The entire process of filling and Priming introduces SO much free air (no matter how slowly one injects ink) that it ends up looking like a jtoolman Martini convention inside the cart by the time one is finished!!!!


REALLY, I DON'T INTRODUCE ANY AIR WHEN I DO MINE. EASY DOES IT IS THE NORM HERE.


Washing the syringes, needles etc. is MESSY and fraught with contamination issues - its very scary if one has not done this a whole lot!!


IF YOU ARE WORRIED THEN I WOULD ASSIGN AN INDIVIDUAL SIRYNGE AND NEEDLE FOR EACH OF THE 9 COLORS.


In Conclusion


A very simple and straight forward process made complex by the new phenomenon (to me, at my age) of having so much development going so fast that the instructions that exist
are out of date by the time a person gets the new toy home....AND the corrupt and deceitful behaviour of Manufacturers in a "GLOBAL" world where they regionalise to prevent true globalisation
and worldwide common products and processes.

The OEM carts are showing near empty by the screen monitor, how one works out the 15% buffer I really do not know but there was only a small bit showing on the screen. I weighed the OEM cart that showed the least and it weighs over
100g the cart is 56g.

EVEN AT THE POINT WHERE THE CART STOPS THE PRINTER FROM FURTHER PRINTING, THERE ARE ABOUT 8 TO 13 ML OF INK STILL INSIDE THE INK BAG.
I PURCHASED ABOUT 150 EMPTY 3800 CARTS FROM EBAY CHEAP AND EXTRACTED ALMOST 8 FLUID OUNCES OF EACH COLOR, GIVE OR TAKE, WHICH I AM CURRENTLY USING ON MY R2400.
I ALSO SAVED THE CHIPS.

So! for me I say "up yours" to OEM's (again) you cant EVEN deliver indicative ink monitoring.....glad you are not designing the Apollo, just imagine where that would end up with THOSE clown messing with THAT!!

Next fill will be a soda, now that I have 'sorted' some of the issues with the carts and ink and tools I have.

Had I not had your support, I think I would have quit part way through this saga, and put it all in the TOO HARD basket. BUT because I knew that you are just a post away I had the confidence to push through..

I appreciate that..........THANKS for making yourself available and approachable.

Cheers,

Andrew

IT WILL WORK OUT FINE!
THEN EVERYTIME YOU REFILL THOSE CARTS FOR A FRACTION OF WHAT YOU WOULD PAY THEM, YOU CAN SMILE BIG!

JOE

 

[3dogs]

The carts are from Cone.

On the box that they were shipped in it says "Refillable Cartridge System Compatible with Epson Stylus Pro 3880" so that is pretty clear what they were intended for.
PLUS I had to wait a couple of weeks for new stock to arrive from China, so there really is NO excuse.
Its not a BIG deal in the whole scene, as a person can use a permanent ink pen and write a comment on each cart, but that's not my point. It seems that NOTHING from TV's to high tech Computers almost without exception
NOTHING is matched accurately. There is ALWAYS a number of key things that differ in either the advertised item, the instructions, or the maintenance manuals.

Yes we are talking pigment inks here.Thankfully the carts and printer were happy to play together. The OEM chips fitted as Cone said to do it and they just pop in, all VERY easy.

Try as I might I just COULD NOT get any ink via the capped port on the side....it just would NOT flow at all. In desperation I went back to the instructions and there they are VERY explicit about using the outlet valve port!!
I assumed (silly me!) that the video would be up to date, my assumption now is that there has been a change in the process. I plan to email Cone with all this as they have been really helpful all along.

We must be on the same thinking 'cos I did tip the syringe and cart just a bit that was how I found that the ball was such a tight fit. The very tip of the plastic/silicone primer attachment is castellated to allow for ink to pass, its just TOO fine a castellation to work straight on!

I just cant stop the air....I was going REAL slow, like a snail even, slower than in your video, still it froths up especially in the two primer chambers. I am thinking that I need to find where the ink gets into those chambers , so I can be sure to keep them flooded at all times to help stop the air getting in - PERHAPS?

I did get plenty of syringes from Cone, they were good with that, so I have assigned one per colour, and I will keep it that way and for me it is a nice tidy solution. I am thinking that I NEED order, PROCESS and CLARITY to function, some folks can just get by real well in what seems to me to be utter disorder........but they get to the same place as me anyway!!

Well its raining today, and there are major bush fires about 150 miles from here!!! Its a BIG, STRANGE land this place called Australia. I will spend this morning messing with filling the next 5 carts so that I have 100% Cone from now on.

Cheers,

Andrew