Old ink?

[The Hat]

The Hat:

Barometric/Thermometer effect?

That would certainly account for the need to expel the excess air inside to equalise pressure but not the ink surely.

One theory I have is that it may be down to my filling practice of letting the two sponges get saturated
which allows the ink to be much closer to the top of the air maze then new OEMs, the jury is still out.

 

[lin]

OK, lin, how about if I start another test? I'll take another brand new Canon cartridge and leave the air vent seal on it but remove the orange cap and then put it back on holding it in place with a rubber band. Is that how you attach it or do use tape or something else?

I disagree with your idea that the serpentine air path has anything to do with ink flow. The rate of ink/air flow is so slight that the serpentine air path can have any effect. Can you think of a test that would prove your idea? If you drilled a hole in the top of the cartridge to make a difference, what test would you perform to see if that had any effect on the ink/air flow inside the cartridge?

Does the brand new cartridge that you purchased from Canon comes with the seal tape at the L shape opening? If the whole maze mechanism is just merely for cartridge breathe during the daily air pressure cycles, then canon would have packed it without the vent tape when they sell it.

If you observe a brand new canon cartridges, you would have observed that the sponge is not fully or overly saturated.

Now during refilling (assuming top refilling method), when the sponge chamber absorb about 3/4 of ink, hold fingers over the L shape open tightly to block/cover it to slow down/cut down/reduce/stop the air from enter further, this will also slow down ink from the ink chamber to further oversaturating the sponge chamber. And allow the ink chamber to fill up with ink as they are being injected.

Why covering up the L shape opening that will lead to the vent hole is able to slow down/cut down/reduce/stop the ink from the ink chamber to further oversaturating the sponge chamber? That is becausing you are cutting down/blocking further introduction of air into the cartridge via the vent.

Now if assuming if you were to travel from point A to point B. Would it be faster to travel if point A and B is a short passage? Or passing through a maze to reach point B would be faster?

I would supposed you could try these to simulate the test and see what would be the result.

Have 2 identical cartridges A and B cartridges.

Have one cartridges with the maze mechanism for it to regulate a stable introduction of air into the top vent hole (which is at the center above the sponge) before it finally enters the cartridges.

And have another cartridges with the tape above the top hole removed so that air goes in directly into the cartridge.

Now fill up the bottom sponge with same amount and same ink into Cartridge A and B. (seal the refill hole).

Fold a same thickness and length kitchen paper towel, and place both cartridge A and B on the kitchen paper towel on parellal to wick out the ink to simulate the capiliary action taking place. And watch the kitchen paper towel and the cartridge sponge and see which cartridge ink get wick out faster/earlier.

You might want to place a plastic sheet at the bottom of both kitchen paper towel as you do this, otherwise the ink that gets wick onto the paper towel will stain your table. You can use a bit of blue tac and stick it to the cartridge prism area to hold the cartridge in place as they wick so that they don't fall to the side.

I don't know how far this is true or not. But to me the serpentine air path is to regulate a stable introduction of air into the top vent hole before it finally enters the cartridges.

 

[ghwellsjr]

OK, lin, how about if I start another test? I'll take another brand new Canon cartridge and leave the air vent seal on it but remove the orange cap and then put it back on holding it in place with a rubber band. Is that how you attach it or do use tape or something else?

I disagree with your idea that the serpentine air path has anything to do with ink flow. The rate of ink/air flow is so slight that the serpentine air path can have any effect. Can you think of a test that would prove your idea? If you drilled a hole in the top of the cartridge to make a difference, what test would you perform to see if that had any effect on the ink/air flow inside the cartridge?

Does the brand new cartridge that you purchased from Canon comes with the seal tape at the L shape opening? If the whole maze mechanism is just merely for cartridge breathe during the daily air pressure cycles, then canon would have packed it without the vent tape when they sell it.

Yes, if you remove the shrink-wrap plastic around the entire brand new cartridge, the seal tape over the air vent L shape opening remains intact.

I answered the question of why Canon seals the air vent here:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=46892#p46892
I will add that one of my other tests shows that with the air vent uncovered, there is a drop in the ink level over the course of a couple years by a small amount so it's not perfect.

If you observe a brand new canon cartridges, you would have observed that the sponge is not fully or overly saturated.

Now during refilling (assuming top refilling method), when the sponge chamber absorb about 3/4 of ink, hold fingers over the L shape open tightly to block/cover it to slow down/cut down/reduce/stop the air from enter further, this will also slow down ink from the ink chamber to further oversaturating the sponge chamber. And allow the ink chamber to fill up with ink as they are being injected.

Why covering up the L shape opening that will lead to the vent hole is able to slow down/cut down/reduce/stop the ink from the ink chamber to further oversaturating the sponge chamber? That is becausing you are cutting down/blocking further introduction of air into the cartridge via the vent.

Now if assuming if you were to travel from point A to point B. Would it be faster to travel if point A and B is a short passage? Or passing through a maze to reach point B would be faster?

I would supposed you could try these to simulate the test and see what would be the result.

Have 2 identical cartridges A and B cartridges.

Have one cartridges with the maze mechanism for it to regulate a stable introduction of air into the top vent hole (which is at the center above the sponge) before it finally enters the cartridges.

And have another cartridges with the tape above the top hole removed so that air goes in directly into the cartridge.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1013176.jpg
Now fill up the bottom sponge with same amount and same ink into Cartridge A and B. (seal the refill hole).
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1013210.jpg
Fold a same thickness and length kitchen paper towel, and place both cartridge A and B on the kitchen paper towel on parellal to wick out the ink to simulate the capiliary action taking place. And watch the kitchen paper towel and the cartridge sponge and see which cartridge ink get wick out faster/earlier.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1013234.jpg
You might want to place a plastic sheet at the bottom of both kitchen paper towel as you do this, otherwise the ink that gets wick onto the paper towel will stain your table. You can use a bit of blue tac and stick it to the cartridge prism area to hold the cartridge in place as they wick so that they don't fall to the side.

I don't know how far this is true or not. But to me the serpentine air path is to regulate a stable introduction of air into the top vent hole before it finally enters the cartridges.

I will perform a test like you suggest except that I may put the outlet ports in water to make sure that both cartridges have identical ink flow rates out of them. I'm afraid it would be too difficult to make sure paper towels have the same wicking characteristics.

 

[lin]

Does the brand new cartridge that you purchased from Canon comes with the seal tape at the L shape opening? If the whole maze mechanism is just merely for cartridge breathe during the daily air pressure cycles, then canon would have packed it without the vent tape when they sell it.

Yes, if you remove the shrink-wrap plastic around the entire brand new cartridge, the seal tape over the air vent L shape opening remains intact.

I answered the question of why Canon seals the air vent here:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=46892#p46892

The seal tape that I mentioned at the L shape, I am not referring to the black tape above the maze that covers the maze and center vent hole. But rather the orange pull tape that also seal the L shape opening. Once you pull this orange seal tape, you open up the L shape vent area which leads to the long maze passage to the center hole. So once you the pull orange seal tape, it is removed and does not remains intact.

The shrink plastic wrap the cartridge. And it does not remove the orange seal tape unless you pull the orange seal tape. Because the orange seal tape adhere on Top of the cartridge to seal up the L shape opening. When canon ship their new cartridge, the L shape opening leading to the center hole is sealed such that no air enters.

However if you pull the orange tape, it remove the both the orange tape and shrink wrap plastic altogether.

 

[lin]

ghwellsjr, by the way, this is one of Y cartridge that had been opened and use partially few years ago which later on the same day the were opend, were stored until now. Both the air vent (from L shape opening) and exit cap is sealed and then wrapped with a sticky plastic (this plastic has a similar feel to microwaveable plastic wrap). Then placed inside a tupperware during those time when I was storing it.

I did not experience any leak at all despite I had both air vent and exit port sealed when I opened it 2 weeks ago. The sponge in the sponge chamber is not even oversaturated.

(Just to point out, in the above picture though you see me securing the exit cap using rubber band (because that was done long time ago). If now, I am going to hold the original orange cap onto the cartridge for which I had intention to store for a long time (say a few several years), I think I will not use the rubber band directly on the cartridge anymore. Because last time, I found one of the rubber band which I used to secured a spare cartridge exit cap that I did not use for quite a long time, sticked to the cartridge).

 

[ghwellsjr]

Does the brand new cartridge that you purchased from Canon comes with the seal tape at the L shape opening? If the whole maze mechanism is just merely for cartridge breathe during the daily air pressure cycles, then canon would have packed it without the vent tape when they sell it.

Yes, if you remove the shrink-wrap plastic around the entire brand new cartridge, the seal tape over the air vent L shape opening remains intact.

I answered the question of why Canon seals the air vent here:
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=46892#p46892

The seal tape that I mentioned at the L shape, I am not referring to the black tape above the maze that covers the maze and center vent hole. But rather the orange pull tape that also seal the L shape opening. Once you pull this orange seal tape, you open up the L shape vent area which leads to the long maze passage to the center hole. So once you the pull orange seal tape, it is removed and does not remains intact.

The shrink plastic wrap the cartridge. And it does not remove the orange seal tape unless you pull the orange seal tape. Because the orange seal tape adhere on Top of the cartridge to seal up the L shape opening. When canon ship their new cartridge, the L shape opening leading to the center hole is sealed such that no air enters.

However if you pull the orange tape, it remove the both the orange tape and shrink wrap plastic altogether.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1013259c.jpg

Yes, I understand all that. I removed the shrink plastic wrap by cutting it off down near the orange cap and it leaves the seal tape over the air vent L shape opening intact. We have the same understanding.

 

[ghwellsjr]

ghwellsjr, by the way, this is one of Y cartridge that had been opened and use partially few years ago which later on the same day the were opend, were stored until now. Both the air vent (from L shape opening) and exit cap is sealed and then wrapped with a sticky plastic (this plastic has a similar feel to microwaveable plastic wrap). Then placed inside a tupperware during those time when I was storing it.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1012993.jpg

I did not experience any leak at all despite I had both air vent and exit port sealed when I opened it 2 weeks ago. The sponge in the sponge chamber is not even oversaturated.

(Just to point out, in the above picture though you see me securing the exit cap using rubber band (because that was done long time ago). If now, I am going to hold the original orange cap onto the cartridge for which I had intention to store for a long time (say a few several years), I think I will not use the rubber band directly on the cartridge anymore. Because last time, I found one of the rubber band which I used to secured a spare cartridge exit cap that I did not use for quite a long time, sticked to the cartridge).

I can do one test with the orange cap held in place with a couple rubber bands and another test with it held on by whatever new method you want to choose, plus I'll do one test with a piece of the yellow vinyl tape that I normally use. Any other ideas?

 

[ghwellsjr]

Have 2 identical cartridges A and B cartridges.

Have one cartridges with the maze mechanism for it to regulate a stable introduction of air into the top vent hole (which is at the center above the sponge) before it finally enters the cartridges.

And have another cartridges with the tape above the top hole removed so that air goes in directly into the cartridge.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1013176.jpg
Now fill up the bottom sponge with same amount and same ink into Cartridge A and B. (seal the refill hole).
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1013210.jpg
Fold a same thickness and length kitchen paper towel, and place both cartridge A and B on the kitchen paper towel on parellal to wick out the ink to simulate the capiliary action taking place. And watch the kitchen paper towel and the cartridge sponge and see which cartridge ink get wick out faster/earlier.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/uploads/2740_p1013234.jpg
You might want to place a plastic sheet at the bottom of both kitchen paper towel as you do this, otherwise the ink that gets wick onto the paper towel will stain your table. You can use a bit of blue tac and stick it to the cartridge prism area to hold the cartridge in place as they wick so that they don't fall to the side.

I don't know how far this is true or not. But to me the serpentine air path is to regulate a stable introduction of air into the top vent hole before it finally enters the cartridges.

I will perform a test like you suggest except that I may put the outlet ports in water to make sure that both cartridges have identical ink flow rates out of them. I'm afraid it would be too difficult to make sure paper towels have the same wicking characteristics.

I gave this test a try but with inconclusive (unrepeatable) results.

But then it occurred to me that a better test would be to simply put a set of new cartridges in a printer with the tape removed over the inlet into the top of all the cartridges (and with the inlet hole enlarged) and then repeatedly print something until one of the cartridges runs out of ink and then see if there is any difference in the printouts. Isn't that really what we care about?

 

[fotofreek]

To add to the "tape over the serpentine channel of the air vent" discussion, when we were in the early stages of posting on this forum there were compatable carts that were touted as being good ones. Rob, our Nifty-stuff.com founder and administrator, noted that some carts of a particular brand (I believe it was "Arrow") fed well and some didn't. He also noted that when he opened the fill hole to refill some of these carts the ink level that remained in the reservoir side suddenly dropped. This may have been a result of poor pressure balance as the cart was used.

I had just purchased a dozen Arrow carts and did an evaluation. Turns out that when I removed the covering over the air chanel they were obviously from either two different manufacturers or were from different molds from one manufacturer. The problem carts had a different shaped air channel and too small an air vent - that is the actual hole in the top of the cart over the foam area. I enlarged them and they worked fine without bothering to cover the vent and most of the channel.

I had also purchased some unfilled compatable carts - as I recall, from MIS - and they had no covering over the vent or part of the air channel like the OEM carts have. Worked just fine and with no problems.

It is possible that the partially covered channel better controls the compensating intake of air as ink is used, or it is used to minimize evaporation. These carts with the actual vent hole exposed worked very well. The experience with the uneven cart manufacture and function from one presumably good vendor pretty well convinced us that OEM carts were the best for refilling.

After thinking about these early experiences I wonder if someone who does very long print runs would be well served to actually puncture the cover over the air vent hole to permit the carts to "breathe" better and avoid the very mild vacuum that could occur from rapid demand for ink in the printing process? I'm not one to question the engineering prowess of the Canon company, but I've noticed that even with OEM carts that I've refilled several times the reservoir level sometimes drops and the remaining ink is rapidly absorbed into the sponge when the fill hole is opened as I prepare to do another refill. I've also seen a bit of foam in the reservoir area when I've done a very long print run. Maybe the answer is that OEM carts are designed optimally for one time use, and even the slightest amount of ink residue in the sponge area changes the air/ink pressure balance. I would add, however, that these factors - slight foaming and ink level dropping whent the fill hole is opened - haven't harmed the printhead or changed the quality of the print.

 

[ghwellsjr]

After thinking about these early experiences I wonder if someone who does very long print runs would be well served to actually puncture the cover over the air vent hole to permit the carts to "breathe" better and avoid the very mild vacuum that could occur from rapid demand for ink in the printing process?

This raises an interesting question: should I use as my test print an image that maximizes the ink flow from all colors or one that would make it easier to tell if there is an ink flow problem? I was planning on using this image:



But I could use this one:



Or some other one if anyone has a good suggestion.