Need advice for high volume A4 printing. Which printer to buy?

[crexas]

Hello dear printer maniacs. I am in need of your help. I need a reliable printer for heavy A4 color photo-quality printing. Any advice which one I should buy?

First of all I am sorry for my English - it is not my native language. And there is a TL;DR version at the end of the post describing exactly what I need. The main part is just for a clearer understanding.

The situation is that I began with using Canon IP4500, then 4600 came out and now I am using Canon IP4700. Two of them to be exact. They are both running on CISS and printing on inkjet matte photo paper. Top quality settings, non stop printing all day. I chose IP4700 because it's quite easy to set up CISS and print quality is great. But what bothers me is the printing speed and reliability. A full A4 sheet on top quality settings takes about 4 minutes to print. Using both printers I print about ~200 sheets a day and even tho it's OK, I wouldn't mind doubling that number with a new printer. Of course I could buy a third 4700 and maybe a fourth but I just wouldn't be able to handle them as printheads clog occasionally and cleaning them takes some time. The worse thing is that in time nozzles die one by one and it slightly changes the printed color shades. It is especially visible on grey prints. But I do a manual color calibration from time to time so it's not the end of the world, but one of the reasons I am looking for a new printer.

Those printheads die after I print about 2000-3000 color pages. I am printing pages that are about 90% filled with colors. Then I just throw the whole printer out and buy a new one. I know it sounds quite stupid: using a printer for a month, throwing it out and buying the same one again. But that's just how it is as I'm struggling to find a better solution. A better printer. And laser printers are a no-go. Not just because of photo print quality, but my paper sheets are special (not exactly photo paper) and they can only be used with inkjets.

I have called a couple of firms in my city that work with printers, sell them, repair them and when I asked for advice on buying a new printer and explained my situation... well... they all had a smile on their face all of them told me what I already knew - that the printers I use are not suited for such heavy printing and are more like for home use. I understand that. But when I asked if they could offer me any better solution they all said the same thing - plotters. There are different types of plotters so please imagine something like HP DesignJet. That is the kind of plotter I am talking about. But none of those firms could consult me about them as they did not specialize or work with plotters. There is simply no company in my country that could help me on this one. Sad, but true. I live in Eastern Europe btw.

I know they are right, because simple inkjet printers are not capable of long heavy printing like I do and that their printheads are not designed to handle such heavy load. But there are some exceptions. A few days ago I stumbled upon an Epson B510DN online. A printer with huge cartridges and it can handle quite heavy printing. They are not sold in my country, I would have to order it online and have it shipped to my location. The problem is that I cannot afford to blindly buy a printer that costs around 600$ without printing a test photo page and comparing the quality to that of my Canon's first. A few years ago some firm had an earlier version of that B510 (I don't know the model but it looked very similar to B510 on the outside) and they printed a test photo page for me. On my own paper. And I was disappointed. Print quality was noticeably lower than that of IP4500 (at that time 4500 was the latest model). B510 specs say it can do 5760 x 1440 dpi with 3pl droplet (against canon ip4700 9600 x 2400 dpi and 1pl droplet). Tech specs say that quality is worse. But can it be clearly seen with the naked eye? That I will never know unless I find that printer and print a test page to see for myself.

Now plotters. Yeah they are huge printers for wide format printing, they use huge cartridges, are suited for heavy printing. Sounds like exactly what I need. The problem? Paper format. You just don't load sheets into them. They use paper rolls. There is a reason why I can only use A4 and can't use a bigger format but I am not going to disclose it just yet. Could I use a paper roll and make the plotter cut it to A4 size after printing? Maybe. But that is just how I imagine it possible in my imagination. In reality I have no idea how it would work and if A4 paper is at all possible to be used in plotters. Maybe use A3 and print x2 A4 on them and then cut them. Maybe... My knowledge about plotters is very limited and it's not like there is a lot of information on the internet floating around to solve my problems which I would have if I bought one and tried to adapt my work with them.

TL;DR

I am looking for an inkjet printer (or a plotter or anything that can print ink) that would have a similar photo print quality like a Canon IP4700 and could withstand a big amount of printing. At least 5000 color A4 pages per month. And wouldn't die after said month. I can spend no more than 2000$ on the printer. Reliability and print quality are top priorities. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated as I am desperately in need of help. Especially thanks to whoever managed to read the whole story

 

[The Hat]

crexas
Hi and welcome to Nifty, and you call us manias with compliments like that then we have to help.
You have very good knowledge of Canon printers running CISS as well, so what inks/CISS are you using.

For the amount of prints you do I am surprised youre having so many problems with clogs
and print head failures, thats why I asked about the inks/CISS.

If Youre having the clogs and print head failures so often I would look seriously at my setup again and see
if theres anything that can be improved to eliminate these problems and at least delay them.

I know that these printers are capable of 2000 a month with no problems at all, so maybe a third printer
might bring the volume down to a less destructive level for you.

Suggestion: - Can you not print on standard quality instead of High quality is there that much difference
in the output quality that would be noticeable on the type of paper that your using.

You asked about plotters, they do lovely quality prints all right and use larger paper that can
print 2 A4's at a time or 4 x A4s if you choose the 91cm. rolls.

Heres the BUT, they tend to be much slower than their little A4 cousins the difference is like
comparing a Tortoise/Hare and more to the point more expensive and poorer reliable ability.

I would suggest using two A3 printers with eight colours in them, they could be run faster using only standard
quality A3 prints as well, but if you can only get your paper in A4,
it still that might work if you can use the paper Landscape one up, they also have a longer lifespan.

I have provided a few suggestions for you to ponder on and I hope some of them helped
or at least give you some more ideas to think about.

Continued Happy Printing..

 

[crexas]

Thank you very much for your reply.

CISS. I am using simple CISS systems from ebay (around ~60$). I didn't really care much about the CISS itself when buying, as most of them work in the same way - ink tanks, air filters, tubes and cartridges (I believe they are the only thing that matters). But since I never really have any problems with ciss itself, I don't pay too much attention in that direction.

Inks. Now I know what really matters - it's ink. As far as I know it's the most likely suspect when dealing with print head clogs. I am using Ink-Mate inks. They are produced by Alphachem company in Korea. I know they are not as good as for example Rihac inks (or am I wrong?) but they are really cheap and there is only one company in my city that sells me ink in bulk 1L bottle each and Ink-mate inks are the only ones they have for Canons. They cost around 60$/L for me. But yeah - I know that inks really do make a big difference and next week I'll start googling for better quality inks as I've noticed that their cyan is a bit different from Canon's original cyan - Canon's cyan has bit more "magenta" in it and Ink-Mate more "yellow" if you understand what I mean. But color balancing in printing preferences solves this problem partially.

Printing quality. When I buy a new printer with a new print head - printed images look the same on top quality and in normal quality. And normal quality prints 2x faster. But after some time my nozzles begin to die one by one and nozzle check prints are not as smooth as the first ones anymore. That's when quality difference becomes visible and I have to use top quality to retain good prints. As time goes by, my nozzles die bit by bit. When flushing print head with hot water doesn't improve nozzle checks anymore - they are not clogged so I figure they are just dead. The biggest problem comes with grey prints. A few dead magenta nozzles make grey look greenish, dead yellows - more purple, and so on. There is no way I can print a steady grey on like 1000 sheets. I have to readjust color balance every 200 pages or so... It's frustrating, but it works. Not perfectly, but atm I don't have a better option.

A3 printers. A few weeks ago I had the same idea. A3 printers might be a good solution since they use more inks and provide more color-steady and reliable prints. The problem is that it will be harder to find 3rd party inks for more colors than just CMYK and I have no idea how they will work with CISS systems. Refilling cartridges is an option for some people, but not me. I've tried that a few years ago, but a) it's much more messy than CISS. b) is a waste of time comparing to CISS, because I print about 100 color pages a day with each printer and it takes me to refill CISS just 1 time a day. Whereas I would have to refill cartridges every 20-30 pages or so. When a page is 90% filled with colors - cartridges run dry really fast.

Now the thing about A3 printers is that I would need an advice from someone who has been using one for some time and preferably with a CISS. If they print the same good quality, or at least are similar to that of Canon 4700's - I'd go for it. Been thinking about Canon Pro9500 MarkII or something similar, but I would really appreciate some more information from someone who actually owns one of these A3's and could give some info on inks and continuous printing solutions.

EDIT: ok I was wrong about Canon PRO9500 as it turns out it can't be used with CISS. There are some Epson alternatives but are there any models suitable for a lot of printing?

 

[The Hat]

crexas
Reading your thread it strikes me that you have done that and more than a lot of other guys.
When it comes to the CISS most of them are much the same (good quality) but there are some dreadful ones out there as well.

With the inks that youre using (Ink-Mate) I have never heard of Alphachem (Korea)
but at $60 a Litre it must be the best ink around or you are being screwed big time.

There are many ink sellers across Europe and the EU that sells good quality inks in bulk cheaper if you have the time to look.
OCP and Image Specialists are about the best around so check it out with the sellers before committing to buy, which ink supplier then use.

I can nearly see the frustration on your face of having to switch up to higher quality just to maintain reasonable print quality,
+ all that just might be down to the ink quality itself.

When you explained the print head nozzles problems youre having it struck me that the ink might
well be universal ink and not just formulated for Canon printers at all.

Using an A3 printer with CISS is no harder than on A4 which you have mastered quite well just a few extra pipes that all.
I have used CISS on an eight colour A3 printer with great success (Standard Quality printing all the time)
and was printing over a 1000 sheets a week on it; there were no problems using it with the CISS.

I currently use CISS on my ix4000 A3 printer which runs perfectly well despite not using it
as much as I would like too (Due only to the lack of work for it).

I was going to put you straight on the pro9500 (I use one) but it looks like you all ready know about it,
its a high quality printer (slower) that would be totally impossible to convert to CISS (Pigment Inks).
As I dont know much about Epson printers I cant contribute anything in that direction sorry..

 

[crexas]

Today I started looking at other ink suppliers online. Some a bit more expensive, some cheaper. But I am willing to take the risk and buy a whole new 4 color package and see how it goes. How much slower is your pro9500? How long does it take for A4 full color page to come out? That's the problem with me and printers - I just can't understand those specs telling print speeds. All that matters to me is the time of a full color A4 page takes to come out on best quality. My IP4700 needs about 4mins.

What about pro9000? It uses dye based ink and I've seen many videos with it running on ciss. I'll have to google around for differences between 9500 and 9000 (besides different ink). If print speeds are somewhat similar to ip4700 and it has good print quality then I think I will have a winner. But I will also have to check out Epson R3880 as I've heard that Epsons have less trouble with ciss

 

[The Hat]

crexas
There are a number of A3 Canon printers between the IX 4000 and the pro 9000 which have 4 and 6 cartridges in them.
The ix4000 that have (4 colour) is quite fast but the ip4700 is a bit faster and
I have heard that the pro9000 is fast if left on standard quality mode.

Now again believe me the pro9500 is nowhere near as fast as the pro9000 which would work
on CISS BUT you cant under any circumstance use a CISS on the pro9500 even if youre Houdini,
because of its total different design to the pro9000 and also its inks.

Like you I have used CISS on quite a lot of different Canon printers, for high volume its the way to go
but you have to know the limits of where CISS can work to get all of its benefits.

So it boils down to a mid range A3 Canon printer or the pro9000 that is all there is
to choose from or stick with the ip4700 its the fastest around.

But if you go with Epson using CISS A4 and A3 printers there may be quite a few
more printers that might work better for you, me Im only with Canon..

 

[mikling]

The 510 is an office printer. You can simply download the drivers install it and take a look at the settings. The resolution is simply not there as a photo printer. However, if you look closely at the innards I am told you'll notice it is the same as that used for mini dry labs printing. The difference an internal RIP will make! Obviously, it has been de featured for the consumer/business market. Mini Dry labs makers do not sell for a few hundred!

Any Epson photo printer will suit the requirements you want. The higher noozle density models such as the R1800/2400/1900/2880 etc will be faster if speed is an issue. If not even the older models and I mean old, 870/875/ or better yet the R200 etc will also work well on a CISS and they are also easily outfitted with an external waste ink tank. Heck even use pigment inks on those or the economy of dye inks on any model. R200s are always being sold in the used market for very little money. With those low prices, pool them together for a printer farm!

The fastest and cheapest new model is going to be the Espon PX series in your neck of the woods. They have the highest nozzle counts and work extremely well with a CISS BUT the only aspect that holds them back is their limited feed tray capacity and whether the media you are using is too stiff to make the paper turn. Oh, I've tested these things with KLARIAH pigment ink. Fabulous output that you will never know came from this category of printer. Will stand next to the output of an R2880 any day.
If you inspect the PX series it essentially is a mini CISS already installed... the CISS you add is an extension of the cartridges.

Of course you can always go get a desktop wideformat like the 4000, 4800,4880 as well and be done with it because those are meant to handle the volumes you are doing and are quite serviceable with user replaceable waste ink trays.

Good luck.

 

[l_d_allan]

a reliable printer for heavy A4 color photo-quality printing

One of my "pet peeves" ... I can't keep track of what size corresponds to different metric or English measurements. I suppose I should know this by now, but maybe I'm the only one who scratches their head to keep A3, A3+, A4, and so on straight. I'm pretty sure my 9000-2 can do A3+ (13x19"), and I'd have to look up what my iP4500 is ... A4 would be my guess. Nope ... A4 and Letter-Size 8.5x11" are somewhat different ... 11.681 x 8.264 for A4.

Hmmmm ... FNO (for nerds only?) This ISO 216 explanation clears up some fuziness on my part. The A-series is all related to the square root of 2. The B and C series ... not so much?

Seems like the size is non-linearly inverse to the A number ... 1 is bigger than 2 is bigger than 3 is bigger than 4 etc. Except + values indicate larger, which is both intuitive and counter-intuitive, at least to me. Maybe it should have been A2.5 instead of A3+?

 

[The Hat]

If you dont understand the sizes, then why O why do you try quote them as fact.

Stick with the topic and Imperial sizes please...

 

[fotofreek]

a reliable printer for heavy A4 color photo-quality printing

One of my "pet peeves" ... I can't keep track of what size corresponds to different metric or English measurements. I suppose I should know this by now, but maybe I'm the only one who scratches their head to keep A3, A3+, A4, and so on straight. I'm pretty sure my 9000-2 can do A3+ (13x19"), and I'd have to look up what my iP4500 is ... A4 would be my guess. Nope ... A4 and Letter-Size 8.5x11" are somewhat different ... 11.681 x 8.264 for A4.

No more confusing than inches, feet, yards, or miles to someone who uses metrics (or visa-versa). Try wire guages, iron pipe sizes regarding inner and outer dimensions relative to copper pipe inner and outer dimensions and then factror in the "type" designation for copper pipe. In the US I deal with the measurements that are commonly in use here. Same goes for users in Europe. For those who need to use both systems there are tables showing measurements. Shouldn't be any more of a pet peave than being told how many stones you weigh or how many hands high your horse is! Or yeld per acre or size of a plot in Sq. Miles. Some vendors sell ink in ounces and others in ml. No biggie, just use a conversion factor.