My thoughts before buying a new printer

[alexandereci]

I've tried only Canon and HP printers, I am leaning towards getting another HP printer (HP 5740, if I can afford it) because I've had a bad experience with my Canon SP200.

As with HP, each new cartridge comes with its own print head - Canon comes with a cradle with an installed print head. I bet you all already know this. I'm opting for a new HP printer over a Canon printer because my Canon printer's print head is clogged. This gives me white streaks on black text, no red, light blue, and near-white yellow. I'm lucky. My dad's printer (he uses it more for reports rather than for photos/color prints) prints only black and white.

I'm wondering if all Canon and Epson printers come in this "cradle" configuration as opposed to HP's print-head-per-cartridge config?

Also, where can I read up on de-clogging techniques? I just tried using alcohol (70% isopropyl) and soaked it for 2 days - that cleaned out all the ink, but not the clogs.

Obviously, I do my own ink refills, and I feel it is just stupid for printer companies to expect users to shell out big bucks when one color runs out and all others are still half full.

 

[tyamada]

If you would do a search for head cleaning you should find numerous posts on cleaning print heads.

 

[Osage]

To alaxandereci,

Lots of alarm bells were going off in my head as I read your post.

But to take your last contention---that is stupid for printer manufacters to expect custoemers to shell out big bucks on presumably tricolor cartridges---when only one of the colors has run out and the others are half full.----that depends on your viewpoint---for the ink jet printer manufacters point of view its great because they make more money selling ink at $4000/gal that cost them less than $100./gal to produce. Until enough consumers wise up to force change---that practice pads their bottom line as printer manufacters make much more on the ink than on making the printer. A similar arguement exists on the printhead on the cartridge vs the printhead seperate from the cartridge. The former forces the refiller to use a pre-used cartridge as a base with no third party markets open----while in the latter design there are many making dirt cheap Canon and Epson prefilled cartridges. It also stands to reason that one can put much more quality into a printhead that lasts rather than a printhead designed to be a throw away.------While a refiller is basically independent and can in theory use either printhead design,
in practice Canon cartridges are far easier to refill than HP or Lexmarks and carry far higher sucess rates---even commercial refillers of HP and Lexmarks using equipment cost wise out of reach for the home amateur have frequent failures-----where as Canon refilling is almost 100% sucessful if the user doen't make big mistakes.

Yet you post that its your somewhat universal experience to have Canon printheads clog. Something that most people have little problem with here.----big question is why just you?

In general printheads clog for three reasons (1) Long periods of no use---usually it takes four months or so in a Canon.------Epsons are far more vulnerable to that problem. (2) The printhead burns out--which happens eventually--or the printhead can experience accelerated burnout if no ink is delivered to the printhead which means the missing ink drop can't cool the thermal printhead when its told to fire. (3) The wrong ype ink is used by a refiller---worse case senario is using a pigment based ink in nozzles designed to take dye-based ink---which can result in an almost instant clog. But a refill ink should be blended for the printer its intended to go in-----no such thing as a good generic ink---and I am guessing thats the most likely reason you are having clogging problems with your Canon printers---bad ink choices. Lots of good and not so good refill inks on the market----but there are some concenus choice inks for Canons only or HP only on these forums. Just a matter of reading up. Why buy a pig in the poke when so many inks have been tested on these forums?

In fact, thats one of the main reasons most on these forums use Canons-----their printhreads are almost trouble free and the cartridges are easy to refill. --------when you have experiences opposite those on these forums you have to ask are you just unlucky or are you doing something wrong?

 

[alexandereci]

Osage,

First off, let me thank you for your detailed reply.

Second, let me say that I am in no way an "expert" in Canon printheads, rather, I've just seen so many Canon printheads clog. As I mentioned in my first post, I have a clogged printhead, my dad suffered that same fate, and I can count 5 or 6 other friends who has problems either with streaking or with one color not printing. I know this for a fact because one of my close friends repairs computers and printers, and he "specializes" in HP printers because he says Canon printers are "troublesome." In fact, he asked for my help with those guys who had clogged printheads... I told him I had the same problem, but I'm still working to fix it and no luck so far.

So why just me? I'm not saying my experience holds true and everyone here who enjoys their Canon printers are the freak accidents. I cannot vouch for my dad's printhead, nor of those other guys, but from the reasons for clogging that you point out, I am sure that I did not leave my printer for more than 4 months (I print lots of stuff); the printhead "might" have burned out, but I remember being able to refill my colored ink tanks immediately; the last reason (using the wrong ink type) may have been the culprit, but I took my ink tanks to be refilled professionally (wasn't doing my own refills then).

Third, I agree on your points about buying cartridges versus refilling them. However, does it hold true that since Canon (and Epson) printheads are not designed to be replaceable, that they are of higher quality than HP printheads?

I also agree that Canon ink tanks (I feel stupid calling them ink cartridges since they act more like reservoirs rather than my concept of a print cartridge) are very easy to refill, I could teach my wife and kid to do it and it takes less time, effort and mess than HP cartridges which basically require you to do some sort of ritual every time you refill them. The HP color ink cartridges are especially picky - mandating you to "waste" some ink to restore the pressure inside the cartridge.


Now here's my problem:
1. I won't bother reading up on good/bad ink types, since only two stores here sell refill inks (the brands are Datace and Ink King), and I don't go to the store that sells Datace since, well, that area isn't really friendly to customers, but what I'd like to know is what the general opinion is on Canon and HP printers?

2. Anyone here familiar with HP 5740? It can print 8.5x22 borderless, 1000 pages per month... what is the Canon equivalent of this? I don't care much for print speed (of course, if it prints 1 page every 5 minutes, I care for print speed, but usually its just a difference of 2-5 pages per minute, and I'm not always in a hurry), so that's not much of an issue, but price is.

Basically, I consider myself to be a HP printer guy, but I wonder what Canon has to offer that seems to pull a lot of buyers (and there are a lot more Canon variants here for sale than HP variant printers), but I don't want to spend my meager budget on something only to "learn another lesson the hard way." So your thoughts are extremely appreciated.

 

[Soja]

All I can give is my opinion......

I'm a Canon man. I wouldn't have a HP shoved up my #$%^%$#$%^&^%$#$##!!
I had a HP that was WEEKS past the guarentee and it went south! I'll NEVER buy a HP again! They are ink hogs... I cound go on forever.
I now have a Canon i9900 and a older Canon S800. No trouble with either, NONE! Perfect pictures too.
In all fairness, I don't know a thing about Epson.

(Sigh...) Ok, I'm done.
Soja

 

[alexandereci]

Soja, can you give more details on how your HP printer "went south"? And what do you mean by "ink hog"? Do you mean that given the same picture, HP uses more ink than Canon?

 

[Osage]

To alexandereci,

Will make a few replies to your new questions and some questions on what is meant by an ink hog. But sure don't want to pawn my self of as expert---many on these forums are far more expert than I but my thing is largely printing economy.

For graphics printing, the two broad choices are lasers and inkjets. Dye-subs are an option I know little about so I will simply ignore it. Monochrome lasers are typically picked for high volume output by business users.--they typically offer about one cent per page consumable costs. Inkjets are typically option for consumers and almost from day one have used cartridges.
And cartridges as replaceable and consumable parts are a tremendous temptation for manufacters to really rip the consumer off---which many do with inkjet printers that combine cartridges with a small ink capacity that carry a high price.----coining the phrase of a disposable printer---to mean a printer when bought new and including a set of cartridges costs less than a set of replacement cartridges bought new-----and all printer manufacters have such printers in their line up---its almost like the buyer must bribe the manufacter to get cartridges of decent capacity.--and some inkjet printers are as cheap as $30. ----there is no definition I know of for an ink hog but that probably applies to printers that carry a much higher than average per page cost-----usually based on OEM cartridges. And in virtually very review I have seen better Canon's as the economy king based on apples to apples comparisons. But you as a refiller can be in a situation where these comparisons don't apply to you. But a inkjet printers, using OEM cartridges and printing a basic 5% coverage text page can produce such a page at about 3 cents of consumable ink costs in the most economical printers and the same page could cost as high as 30 cents in a very uneconomical printer. One camn look at the April/05 issue of consumer reports where one such comparison is to be found----and the editors choice Canon ip4000 came in at three cents and the best HP's struggled to come in at six cents.---so 2x diff there.---and for any hapless victim of the photoprinting virus-----the most expensive manifastation any inkjet user is likely to encounter---the cost of a single 8x10 color print can easily run eighty cents of more using OEM cartridges.-----and that can be very hazardous if not fatal to the pocketbook when these people print a lot of photoprints.

But 2005 somewhat has been market by all inkjet manufacters using some chip added to their cartridges
to make it harder to use refilling----including the printers using the HP 90 series of ink cartridges like the 5740. The refiller can defeat these schemes --but with some work.

But the chief charm of the non-chipped Canons using the BCI-3&6 series of cartridges are that these Canon printers are all very economical. Many here swear the i965 is perhaps the best even if its an long discontinued printer----the last of the Canon non-chipped line are the ip3000,4000, and ip5000.
At least as general purpsoe printers as opposed to being dedicated photoprinters and not using the large BCI-3eBK cartridge.------but in these type printers one can expect up to a savings of up to 7x over OEM cartridges using readily available third party pre-filled ink cartridges---depending on vendor choice. HP's and Lexmark refilled cartridges seldom carry over 50% savings vs. OEM when bought from a commercial refiller. Refillers here often get up to a 15x reduction over OEM. But seldom do users rely on local vendors---we order ink or refill kits mail order and these items are shipped to us over distances of hundreds or thousand of miles.

If I were asked to recommend the best printer choice I don't know how I would answer--because that depends on the needs of the user-----but I opted to get an IP4000 for my wife--nearly a years ago--when you could find them retail---now its harder but plenty still left on ebay.---since then I have not had a moment of trouble with it regardless if its diet was an OEM cartridge, a third party prefilled cartridge, or a refilled cartridge.------but I research my vendors well---using data on this forum.

But if you like the HP 5740 refilling your own should get you good economy-------just remember you must have 4 cartridges of each type to defeat the chip scheme HP uses. But lots of good choices in printers when you get to the $100 and up printers--the real real bad inkjet choices are usually much cheaper than $100 when you are talking just printer.

Hope that helps some but many others may post other food for thought.------but after researching these type questions I decided to go Canon----and now have a refurbished MP730 as well.

 

[alexandereci]

Osage,

Again, I understand the points you presented in your post, especially the issue about refill kits/refillers = big savings.

However, the "chip" idea is new to me. Can you elaborate more on this, or point me in a direction where I can read up on it? My apologies for not being too search-it-yourself friendly, I'm at work, and can only spend limited time "doing my own researtch".

I've gone and looked at Canon printers through their website, and I can say that their products look good. I've emailed HP several times the past 2 weeks and have yet to hear from them, I guess I can give Canon another try --- especially since I found out that my Canon S200SPx is a mega-low-budget printer (3ppm black, 2ppm color, IIRC). However, I read users on this forums praising the Canon 990/950/900, and here you talk about Canon 4000 - a nice product to be sure, but about 50% out of my price range!

Are there any thoughts on the lower-priced Canon models such as the 1600, 2200, 1000, 1500, 2000, and perhaps the 3000 models? And do I need the Think Tank technology?

 

[Osage]

To alexandereci,

The limited time situation problem duly noted--lots to learn here and I have been using these forums for almost a year now----huge amounts to digest.

But where did you get the idea the Canon pixma ip4000 is super expensive?---it can still be found on ebay for about $110 after paying shipping---brand new, shipped, and with original set of OEM cartridges and full factory warranty.-----------I note quick perusrasal of the HP 5740 on google seemed to carry a street price of about $90.------without shipping factored in. But the super expensive printers seem to be the dedicated 6+ color photoprinters--be they HP, Canon, or Epson.---or in wide carriage printers.----those rascals can go $500.+------- the slightly cheaper ip 3000 just lacks one color---the BCI-6 photoblack that the ip4000 and ip5000 does have-----and for the photoprinting types, the ip5000 chief advantage over the ip4000 is a printhead with almost double the nozzles and the ability to use 1 vs. 2 picoliter drops in photoprinting.---but often some lucky person runs across an ip5000 for less than a $100 at certain stores who have these in some under the shelf bin---try your local Staples although they would be a bargain at $150.-------although there is some debate on these and other forums if the average eyeball can detect any difference between the output of a ip4000 or 5000.---another option I thought was gone
and no longer available retail is the Canon MP780---todays sunday paper listed it at $200 cash and carry at Fry electronic-------it uses the Canon ip4000 printer engine and non-chipped Cartridges line, and throws a decent flatbed scanner and fax in the package.---great if you can use a scanner and fax--pricey if you don't.

But I see you need a quick course on other Canon models and some chip information. The previous non-chipped Canon low end option was in the ip1500 printer engine--which uses a BCI-24 color and black variant cartridge---using Oem cartridges its per page cost is about double that of say an ip4000.
But for a cheap printer--about $50.---the output is not that bad---but pair that with prefilled third party cartridges readily available on the internet at a buck a pop and one could pair low initial purchase price with printing economy---or so I theorize.--pay a little more and the ip2000 gets you pic bridge support.
But in my opinion the cartridges are too small to be viable candididates for refilling.--and the ip1500 printer engine also spawns some multifuctional that add a flat bed scanner and in the case of a MP390 you get a fax also.

But starting about 4/2005 Canon began bringing out new models with chipped cartridges---and so far no one has beat the scheme or come to market with a chip resetter-----bottom line you must use a chipped Canon cartridge in these printers-------which totally shuts out any third party cartridge vendor--no chip on cartridge equals printer don't print----these cartridges can be refilled after navigating some nag screens but you also lose any ink level monitoring---my understanding is that the think tank system is simply having the chip count nozzle fires---when the nozzle fire count reaches a certain level the printer refuses to use the cartridge any more--even if you refill it with ink--unless you go through the nag screens where dire threats are issued---but many are refilling the new chipped Canons by this method--you just lise the think tank system ink monitoring.

The older Canons using the BCI-3&6 cartridges used an optical method based on guessing---an internal printer light shines through the translucent reserve tank but non translucent ink in the tank stops the light---when the translucent ink is drained from the reserve tank the light hits a sensor----problem is considerable usable ink still is retained in the sponge. So the printer delays a low ink warning for some time. Or at least thats my understanding of the gist of it.

Its also my understanding that the HP that uses the 90 series of inks use a different chipped scheme to make refill your own harder---each HP cartridge has a serial number on a chip--which the printer stores in internal registry memory---simply waiting till the cartridge is empty and then refilling it does not work---when you but the refilled cartridge back into the printer the printer remembers that cartridge serial number is supposed to be empty----but it only has four registered memory addresses to hold that information---shovel in a series of different serial number cartridges and the printer forgets that refilled cartridge was used before---and now happily registered that refilled cartridge as a new full cartridge. Just my basic understanding of the way that scheme works and I others feel free to correct me if I am wrong. In the 90 Hp series I think the registry address capacity is 4---in some other HP printers its only 2. But the future is likely to bring harder to defeat chips to pad profits.

Hope that basic info helps---might give you some working knowledge of the basic issues.

 

[alexandereci]

Yeah, lots of info to digest, and often scattered here and there... Anyway, thanks again for the reply, give me a few moments to digest it.

If you're willing, please head over to

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=825

for another thread with questions.

Thanks!