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How Print Neutral Black & White With Cmyk-based Epson Printer

Discussion in 'Epson InkJet Printers' started by pharmacist, Jan 19, 2014.

  1. Jul 16, 2017
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    Like pharmacist already said, you have to experiment. MK is often warm tone, while PK is mostly on the magenta or violet side. And further more these tints differ on different paper (which don't appear to be different white... until it is printed).
    That's why I would not do this with a ciss printer. Because ink switching with another K, for example a K which you have tinted by adding a color ink, is not as easy as with refillable cartridges.
    I told that in dpreview forum just one week ago, where somebody ??? had the same idea...
    https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4177754#forum-post-59796927
     
    The Hat, stratman and pharmacist like this.
  2. Jul 16, 2017
    mikling

    mikling Printer Master Platinum Printer Member

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    That is the reason why Epson K3 printers and now the newer Canon Pro models are so much better at B&W. Tonality shifts with media and it also shifts at each density as well.
    The fact that you can adjust the tonality from within the driver pretty much makes the printing with an all K inkset obsolete. If you were to do it properly, you need to adjust not ONE but nearly all K with tints.
    This is automatically taken care of for you in a K3 machine and Canon Pro provided the LC and LM and the LK , LLK and Y is closely balanced against the OEM.
    When all the futzing around is taken into account, IMO it is better to focus on the images and tonal composition that futzing around with the balanced tinting. Just get a K3 printer starting at the R2880 and newer, the 2400 will also suffice but requires more attention to printing regularly, and get the talent required in the B&W image......and it requires a LOT to make a masterpiece. Suffice to say, also get the NIK Silver Efex Pro....that is a gift from Google....free.
    So if you're thinking about honing your skills in B&W, move up to these K3 and Canon Pro printers and spend the time on the image and not the print...despite this being a printing site. ...kind of heresy but that is the way it is.

    BTW the Canon Pro machines I refer do not include the 9000 and 9500. In this generation Canon eventually saw the major advantages inherent in a K3 type driver and the next Pro generation followed with it ( Pro-1, Pro-10, Pro-1000 etc.. The introduction of the Pro-1 using 4 Ks IMO made piezography obsolete. Why? resolution and control is right up there because remember that the real resolution you get converting a color engine to B&W is a lot less than you were made to believe by the piezography creators because the amount of overlap in the densities is huge and thus redundant. Hard to explain but some will get the idea.
     
    Ink stained Fingers likes this.
  3. Oct 15, 2017
    SNCF

    SNCF Newbie to Printing

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    [​IMG]



    So i am still fighting with BK Photos on L800

    Black: 100 % Photo or Matte Black
    Magenta: 100 % Light Black (LB)
    Cyan: 70 % Light Black (LB) + 30 % Light Light Black (LLB)
    Light Magenta: 50 % Light Black (LB) + 50 % Light Light Black (LLB)
    Light Cyan: 40 % Light Black (LB) + 60 % Light Light Black (LLB)
    Yellow: 100 % Light Light Black (LLB)

    OCP inks:
    Epson Stylus Photo R 2400 / 3000 Matt Black Pigment - IJ BKP 203
    Epson Stylus Photo R 2400 / 3000 Light Black Pigment - IJ BKP 201
    Epson Stylus Photo R 2400 / 3000 Black Light Light Pigment - IJ BKP 200
    Epson Stylus Photo R 2400 / 3000 Photo Black Pigment - IJ BKP 202


    Photos are innatural because gradient is fake, please look at the scanned two printouts on top. I did as "following mix should be used for a six color CcMmYK printer" flushed nozzles and no color exist in tanks.

    All nozzles prints perfect

    [​IMG]

    This two printouts are made od Epson Archival Matte Paper Best Quality and scanned via Epson V300 scanner
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  4. Oct 15, 2017
    mikling

    mikling Printer Master Platinum Printer Member

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    Oh boy,
    B&W is a lot harder than many think. It sounds simple on the surface but it is darn hard.

    You'll come to realize that 1. Out human eyes and brains are very sensitive to grays. 2. The light source will play a part. Xrite with their high end software ends up asking the user to take a comparison chart to " tune" in the gray in the desired light. So even a perfect profile with one million targets is never perfect all the time. 3. Then the direction of the light source can make a difference.

    If you don't know, understand that PK and MK are not always used "raw" for black. The OEM leaves a bit of black for composite to adjust the black for the type or media. Got that? Even on an OEM machine and inks, Black is toned depending on the paper/media. Huh? As soon as the gamut allowed, the OEMs started to do this.

    What you are seeing is some kind of reversion that means the mix in the printer is wrong and it is not necessarily one shade, it could be all of them are wrong by a little. The added colors to tone when mixed at some points will also create its own gray and become darker as well. If you believed you can easily turn a machine and get B&W then I have land in Barbuda to sell you.

    Start by getting QTR, at least you'll make some more headway. QTR if you learn how to analyse the results can help minimize the reversions and then you'll get better results forward.


    Good luck.
     
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  5. Oct 15, 2017
    Ink stained Fingers

    Ink stained Fingers Printer Master

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    These tonality shifts directly imply that you need some colored ink to compensate those shifts. Even if you are able to create perfectly neutral gray inks the paper will add a tint you would have to compensate. Just look to these graphs on pages 9 and 10 how much the paper influences the measured and perceived tonality shifts even varying with the luminance level http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf.
    Would you try to create different B/W inksets for different types of papers compensating them individually for those effects ? So you are most likely better off to leave all that to a special driver mode as Epson is doing it for the user.
     
  6. Oct 16, 2017
    The Hat

    The Hat Printer VIP Moderator

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    Mikling is correct, grey ink can be made up with as many as 6 separate coloured inks and when printed alone that look and print fine, but once they are put together as a solid or in a dot pattern with other grey inks that can change dramatically.

    For example, I printed these 10 grey patches out in line using a white separator between them all why ?
    [​IMG]
    because had I put them side by side that would have altered how each colour would look to the human eye, it is an experiment any one can try for themselves with their own printer.

    Theses grey shades were all made using a nine colour printer and not separate individual grey inks, but the effect would have been the same had they all been separate inks, grey colour ink is an almost impossible to reproduce correctly, and most understood...
    Not everything is black and white...:hide
     

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