Fading Performance of HP Dye Inks

Ink stained Fingers

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I'm trying to find more information about the inks used in the HP 57/58 and HP 95/99 cartidges used in Photosmart printers long time ago. HP is not offering photo printers anymore which seems to make it more difficult.
Let me start at the WIR publication about the fading of 3rd party inks from about 15 years ago

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hardcopy/hardcopy.html

The list at the end refers to Genuine HP 57 & 58 photo cartridges rated at 73 years as per the WIR permanence rating for prints under glass,
all 3rd party inks perform very much below this number, and there is another HP reference with Genuine HP 95 & 99 cartridges rated at 108 years which is an exceptionally high level.
And there is another reference entry for CLI-8 photo inks (Chromalife 100) at 35 years. The HP inks in multicolor cartridges perform still much higher.

You find similar data for a test done with European - probably U.K. - 3rd party offers

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/dpn/dpn.html

The results are the same - all 3rd party inks perform much worse than the HP inks.

Canon is using a brand name 'Chromalife 100' for the dye inks, Epson calls their dye inks 'Claria', and Brother uses a name 'Innobella', but I do not see any name HP is using for their dye inks - or do you ?
This makes it difficult to trace where else or if at all these inks are used - in other printers - what happened to these inks ? Are they still be used for the HP larger format printers - some can run dye inks.
 
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PeterBJ

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I've got two new and unused HP cartridges, An HP 57 tri-colour and an HP 58 photo cartridge. You can have them for free if you want them for testing. I like your ink testing very much.
 

Ink stained Fingers

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@PeterBJ - thanks for your offer, I may come back on it but I like to find out first if that ink set is still used in actual products and not just in cartridges of long gone printers.
 

Ink stained Fingers

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I found quite an interesting report by Wilhelm Research about the performance of inks of tank system printers

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/WIR_Ink_Tank_Printer_Comparison.pdf

The HP GT52 inks perform by far much better than the inks of the other printers - Epson, Canon, Brother, I tested the GT52 inks recently again - yes - that ink set performs pretty well, almost as good as the Epson 106 inks but with one caveat - HP does not deliver a dye black but only a pigment black ink. The Epson 664 inks for a range of Ecotank printers - L365 in the test - perform already very weak - I found similar weak performance as well longer time ago, and the performance of inks for the Canon G4200 and other Megatankprinters is even worse -as bad as non-name inks which I found out as well, it is a pity that Canon delivers such weak inks with their Megatank printers. It is astonishing how wide the longevity differs between these printer models by the different companies.

And I found another variation of quoting the fading permanence of HP dye inks - 100 years under these conditions - protected - on HP Bright White Inkjet Paper

' 7. For prints produced with pigment-based black and dye-based color HP Bright Office Inks. WIR Statement Concerning the Dark Storage Permanence of Documents Printed with HP Pigment Inks and Dye Inks on HP Bright White Inkjet Paper, October 2017. Tests conducted by Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc. indicate that documents printed with HP pigment-based black and dye-based color inks printed on HP Bright White Inkjet Paper stored in the dark (assuming that the document is stored in a file folder, in a box, and is otherwise protected from possible ozone exposure and contact with water) will achieve WIR Dark Storage Permanence Ratings of “Greater Than 100 Years.” For more information, see http://www.hp.com/go/printpermanence. '

This is footnote #7 taken from this internet page

https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/large-format/designjet-ink-media.html

The 100 year rating is quite interesting , the HP Bright White paper does not deliver the best permanence as visible from the printer test report above - much lower than the permanence on a glossy photo paper - 20 vs. 75 years.

The HP T200 series are low end large format printers using the 712 dye/pigment black ink cartridges

https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/....html?jumpid=reg_r1002_usen_c-001_title_r0002

If the statements above apply as well to the inks of these printers these are probably dye inks with a good longevity. But I can't find a test by WIR specifically with these inks or with these printers so it a kind of assumption for me at this time.
 
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The Hat

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(assuming that the document is stored in a file folder, in a box, and is otherwise protected from possible ozone exposure and contact with water)
I find it interest with all these companies stating that their inks last 100 + years when the printed pages are stored in folders, albums or boxes.

For me most of these claims are useless, for instance if I want a document or photo to last that long then I might as well not print it at all and just store as a Tiff or PDF on a CD or drive and view it on screen…

If you can’t enjoy the print now, today and for as long as it lasts sitting on a wall then what’s the point of all these claims, the other thing is will the photo paper that the print is on last that long, never mind the Feckin image..
 

stratman

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I'll bet people our age have many more images in boxes and albums than set out to look at on the wall or table.

I have images that go back 100+ years that look pretty good, though I don't know what they looked like when fresh from the developer.
 

Ink stained Fingers

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Epsn has a kind of competing model range to this HP family of T200 models - it's the Epson T2100/3100 range with a T3100X as a 24" Ecotankmodel, I tested its inks - T49H - briefly almost a year ago which didn't perform as good as the Epson 106 inks, so - believing the HP claims - the HP inks would last longer - 100 years ? HP never offered a dye black even on their photosmart printers, and not on a T230 either, it's always a pigment black in use.
 

maximilian59

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For me most of these claims are useless, for instance if I want a document or photo to last that long then I might as well not print it at all and just store as a Tiff or PDF on a CD or drive and view it on screen…
And you are sure your CDs will last long enough and there will be devices to read them in future? It is the same game. Under best conditions they may last 80 to 100 years, but nobody knows as they are not old enough. So they are not better as a print with pigmented ink on good paper. It is not that long, that DAT tapes where seen as best medium for storage. If you now get some of this tapes you have to be lucky to find somebody with a player to read them. If you want things to last for a long time, you have to care about them. If not, every discussion about longevity is useless. I still have some old VHS tapes from my parents. Most of them now digitised, but it is not the same. If you get from your parents hundreds of hours on film or tapes, it takes you a lot of time to view and digitise them. If your CDs are getting old and you have to copy them again to make sure they are still readable in future that is also time consuming. I don't know what is best for me looking into the future. What am I able when I am older than 80 years? As long as my eyes work, looking at a picture is possible without using any new device.
Cheers,
Maximilian
 

The Hat

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when I am older than 80 years? As long as my eyes work, looking at a picture is possible without using any new device.
100% agreeable, because there are no guarantee in this life…
We once taught God made the World when it was flat....
 

Ink stained Fingers

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We once taught God made the World when it was flat....
as flat as an M-Disk ? they'll last 1000+ years

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artsep16/mol-mdisc-review.html

We all know that these claims for a longevity of 100 etc years are quite theoretical - under the specified conditions - no light - no air flow at all - almost like storage in dry nitrogen, but it takes much less time for prints under typical usage conditions e.g. @The Hat 's dogs in the other thread - 10+ years . I'm rather looking for the relative distance of the various entries in the quoted tables - just a few % of 10 years with no-name inks is not tomorrow but next month already, or the tremendous effects the choice of paper can have, the relative distance of inks by different manufacturers - on the same paper - showing hidden performance differences the suppliers don't tell their customers.
 
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