The 60-hour Myth on Canon printers (Not Here-say)

[stratman]

But if you do anything at all to the cartridge like, Reset the Chip, Refill it, or Both, then the printer will do a purge

Why would the printer give a fig if you removed the cartridge, refilled it, then reinserted it without resetting the chip in that golden 10-20 second period of time?

If the ink level in the cartridge is already past the point of an empty spongeless side, meaning the ink used comes exclusively from the sponged side, the fail safe of the prism is past its use for that chipped cartridge when you yank it and refill without chip reset. Similar situation if you refill before the ink is drained from the spongeless side and the prism's usefullness hasn't been triggered as of yet.

It has been established on this forum that the prism is NOT the end all for marking a cartridge as empty, let alone as "new". This is the chip's function.

The prism cannot override the chip after the prism has alerted the chip of no more ink in the spongeless side. Unless you reset the chip this remains 100% true.

The prism cannot override the chip if you refill before the prism is activated by the customary no more ink in the spongeless side. We tried and failed with this experiment 100%.

 

[BruceW77]

I really don’t know why you insist on grouping the Pro 9000 and Pro 100 together, because these two printers have a completely different set of rules when it comes to print head maintenance.

Prior to the thread posted by Noctivagus in December 2017 (re the Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles), there was a lot of misunderstanding about the maintenance procedure of the Pro-100. That misunderstanding had come about, it would appear, because of an incorrect interpretation of the Pro-9500 Service Manual and the assumption that the Pro-100 was probably the same as the Pro9500. Novtivagus compared his Pro-100 real life results with a correct interpretation of the Pro9000 Service Manual and found a close match.

We can now say with almost certainty that the following aspects seem to be the same for a Pro-100 and a Pro9000:
- The shortest purge timer is 120 Hours.
- The individual cartridge timers are 60 second
- The relationship between a manual purge, a 120 hour purge and a purge initiated by a cartridge removal.
- Purges based on timer expiry are first flagged and the purge happens with the next print but preceding the print.
- A print will not stop a timed purge.

We also know the volume of ink (total across all 8 carts) purged for a manual purge and an ink cartridge removal for more than 60s is very similar.

What has yet to be proven is:
- The 480 Hour timer.
- The volume of ink purged for a Deep purge and also for expiry of any timer longer than 120 Hours.
- The volume of ink purged for other user initiated actions, such as printhead replacement, printhead install, initial setup, power up when printhead had not been capped.

I am not saying the maintenance actions for the 2 printers are the same. However, the Pro9000 Service Manual has so far proved to be an excellent starting point for testing the Pro-100 and I am much the wiser because of that similarity.

I would be very interested in any differences anyone can identify.

Bruce

 

[The Hat]

Why would the printer give a fig if you removed the cartridge, refilled it, then reinserted it without resetting the chip in that golden 10-20 second period of time?

We used to be able to do strange things to the cartridge in the past and the printer didn’t notice, but the newer Pro printers have better software inside them to circumvent any shenanigans we try to get up to.

Some new printers have an independent active living memory and others use the mains power to maintain their memory, that’s why unplugging these printers is a real no no and causes the printer to re-set as new again.

Dare to defy the new Pro printers ink monitoring system and you will incur or suffer the loss of your print head, or worse a fatal error message, they just won’t tolerate interference..

The prism in the present-day cartridges, (If still in situ) are used as an early indicator of the amount of ink left in the working cartridge but is no longer the guiding factor anymore, the printers’ EPROM chip does all the calculating now.

The old way was for the prism to alert the printer that the reservoir was empty, and the EPROM then would put out the yellow flag on the chip to indicate condition low ink and for the user to have another cartridge ready.

The prism itself is a small triangular piece of plastic that reflects a red laser fired by the EPROM to keep itself updated, and at this point if you dare to reset the chip, and not refill, then you have just disabled your own ink monitoring system and are flying blind.

However not so on these newer models, the codes for every scenario are now written into the EPROM and it alone monitors and controls the volume of ink passing through the print head, how else would the printer know whether you were using a normal cartridge or an XL cartridge.

I use CLl-8 cartridges in my iP4700 instead of the smaller CLl-521 cartridges and the printer accepts them as normal using the old-style prism system, but a newer Model printer won’t allow this anymore, the cartridge chips have all been upgraded and are read differently by the EPROM, making the prism all most redundant, but it still can assist...

@BruceW77, you still don’t get it, the Canon Pro 9500 was the first prototype of its generation to have FULL EPROM control over the ink monitoring and maintenance system, (No prism installed) long after the Pro 9000 was released, so these two printers have basically nothing in common.

The next models released had a big improvement in their overall monitoring systems, but Canon still maintained a high level of cleaning against premature head failure, which is still uses today, and to hide this fact no more Service Manuals were released, and if they were, this information was purposly omitted.

If you use your printer as it should be used, then the 60 / 120/ 480-hour purge does not exist, it only comes into play when a printer is left idle and if you are using 3rd party inks as most member on here are then this will never become a problem...

It’s old, irrelevant, and flogged to death news...

 

[BruceW77]

If you use your printer as it should be used, then the 60 / 120/ 480-hour purge does not exist, it only comes into play when a printer is left idle

My Pro-100S is about 2 months old. It is still on it’s original set of OEM cartridges and was used daily for the first month, which is when I noticed the purges.
I note that Noctivagus’s Pro-100S was about 6 months old when he reported the observations.
I promise you my Pro-100S has a 120 Hour timer. I have tested it extensively. Noctivagus seemed convinced as well.
Seeing as you are convinced that the Pro-100 (or Pro-100S) you have tested does not have any such timer, then it would appear there are different types of implementations or the behaviour changes due to some event.

Bruce

 

[stratman]

@The Hat

Does the Pro-100 use prisms with their cartridges?

We know from experiments long in the past that the prism cannot be overridden. For instance, people tried blocking the transmission of light by using opaque tape. It didn't work because the chip on the cartridge was hypothesized to always be counting down on the ink level and eventually the cartridge was marked as empty. Same goes for refilling before the prism is triggered by no ink left in the spongeless side. The ink level continued to be counted down and the cartridge marked as empty despite the refilling.

Forum member Mikling, IIRC, reported that the prism was used, at least in part, to fine tune the chip's own countdown on the ink level. Once the prism triggered by ink depletion in the spongeless side then the chip could more accurately determine when the cartridge was empty.

What I do not recall is whether anyone had or has good data that interfering with the prism, such as by covering it, caused differences in maintenance ink purges.

But all this is tangential to my original question about refilling a cartridge without resetting the chip.

You said:

But if you do anything at all to the cartridge like, Reset the Chip, Refill it, or Both, then the printer will do a purge, whether or not you can do it in only a few seconds, because it’s now seen as a newly installed cartridge.

I then asked you:

Why would the printer give a fig if you removed the cartridge, refilled it, then reinserted it without resetting the chip in that golden 10-20 second period of time?

In addition to the golden 10-20 second parameter, this would be a significant change in the manner Canon printers perform!

What is your proof?

 

[The Hat]

I then asked you:

You’ll need some other Gobeen to test out your theory and questions, because this one ain’t doing any more testing on something that we both know will end in failure...
P.S. I still have the Tee-shirt...

 

[SkedAddled]

Does the Pro-100 use prisms with their cartridges?

It does; they are seen very clearly on the bottom of the carts, especially on flushed/cleaned carts. I'll try to grab a clear picture of it soon.

Posting to/following this thread because it interests me...

 

[PeterBJ]

Does the Pro-100 use prisms with their cartridges?

It does. The CLI-42 cartridges used by the Pro-100 are identical to CLI-8 cartridges but with other chips, labels and inks.

 

[stratman]

You’ll need some other Gobeen to test out your theory and questions

Simmer down. I didn't ask you to test anything. I asked where you came up with your declarations about the 10-20 second parameter. If you don't know then you don't know.

 

[stratman]

It does

It does. The CLI-42 cartridges used by the Pro-100 are identical to CLI-8 cartridges but with other chips

Thank you. That is what I believed.

Can anyone verify:

(a) You can take a cartridge out of the print head and return it unchanged (not refilled and not reset) within 10-20 seconds without triggering a purge?
(b) IF (a) IS TRUE - Will an ink purge be triggered if you refill the cartridge but do not reset the chip despite returning the cartridge within the golden 10-20 seconds?

Inquiring minds want to know.