Image Specialists 10 year old formulation

[Tin Ho]

Now the fact is IS yellow 797 was changed over the 5 years I have handled it. The constituents in the yellow was changed, but the printed color did not measurably. No one mentioned that.

Mikling, it will take a lot more than that to convince me that the w797 today is different from 5 years ago. It sounds funny that the color remains the same the part number is unchanged but it is a different ink. If the part number isn't changed you will need a lot more than that to convince people that the ink has been changed (re-formulated).

If W797 is different from 5 years ago what is exactly the difference? If the color remains the same does it use a different yellow dye? If the yellow dye is different how can the color remain exactly the same?

 

[Tin Ho]

The older 797 looked darker but printed the same essentially as the newer 797. That is what I meant. It is likely the dye used before and after was different. The target color remained the same.... I'm not sure this is possible on all papers though. So workflow issues could come up... I would not worry much about it because paper batches change all the time as well and few care about that issue as well. We get new paper formulations with each batch,

So the paper changes from batch to batch. Work flow issues could come up from batch to batch.

The old WJ797 looked darker but printed the same as the new WJ797.

It's likely the dye used in old 797 was different.

I am completely confused. I don't know what you are trying to tell us. Should I re-profile for each new set of bottles of ink I receive? Should I re-profile for each new package of same model of paper I receive?

What I am getting from your message is IS inks could get re-formulated sometimes but don't worry the colors will remain the same. You should re-profile anyway because the paper you get will change from batch to batch.

I don't think I understand you correctly. Please help.

 

[mikling]

It depends on how picky you are. When inks are mixed, there is a tolerance for color variation. No batch of anything is ever exactly the same. The same goes for paper. So the really picky person will profile with an identical batch of ink and paper as well and store those for later use. When that runs out, a large acquisition is required again and a reprofile is done again. So if you are so picky on minor color variances that are within 2% tolerance, then you should also be checking your paper as well.. But where in the dialogue of forums do people compare or determine the variance of papers? Does anyone ever?

I noted that the liquid color was darker. I don't know what changed. But it printed the same. If you remain unconvinced that is your option. If you can prove otherwise go ahead. read carefully and stop trying to be p icky again. Did I not say the target color remained? What I am pointing out is that if the dye changed and the target color was consistent on one paper, it might not exactly be the same on another paper. However, paper variances itself could be larger than the small changes due to slight dye differences. Also if Canon changes their dyes and the targets are off a bit, who would really know if paper variances can swamp out the difference.

Take this other aspect for example, Epson Professional wide format printers are calibrated in the factory to be within 3% tolerance if my memory serves me right. Heck, that tolerance is wider than the aftermarket ink. What about paper? Now here's the kicker, there is never any discussion of the tolerance of desktop units and they all use the same profiles via the driver package and don't think that they are tweaked more than a mufti thousand dollar pro unit from the factory. So in essence a reality check is required when one is getting picky on desktop units and small variations. Reality check. Maybe that is why custom ICCs for the very printer, ink and paper you have is required if you wanted to be a al about it. Real pros do that and is always an option.

And remember everything in the aftermarket has a context of cost. It's not like the aftermarket bulk inks are priced similarly to OEM stuff so cost pressures are real.

 

[Grandexp]

The issues I had with Grandexp's construct were twofold: That a specific inkset has been changed over the years of its distribution (no proof given),

I consider it proven based on what I was told by Image Specialists. They said if a reformulation occurs the ink will be given a new part number. That is a pretty standard industrial practice. There is no beef to interpret it otherwise.

and, that using some inks (Yellow and Cyan in this case) from a previous inkset (BCI-6) in a new inkset (CLI-8) was somehow bad and customers are getting ripped off for "10 year old technology" (logical fallacy).

That's my personal view that it is not good. 10 years is a long time. The WJ797 and WJ2032 contain old dyes. This means if I use IS inks my latest Pr9000 and MG/MG/MP printers are using inks of old technology. I believe there have been new development of nano technology in color dyes and pigments. Image Specialists apparently does not formulate their Canon inks with new technology.

Canon over the years has changed ink formulations, from BCI-3, BCI-6, CLI-8 to CLI-221. Canon redesigned the cartridges for the new formulation of inks along with releases of new printers. While Canon advanced their ink formulation Image Specialists continued to use the old formulation for these new printers with cartridges.

There are plenty of people very happy with other brand names of inks. You can't dispute that fact. IS is my back up source of inks now.

 

[Grandexp]

I noted that the liquid color was darker. I don't know what changed. But it printed the same. If you remain unconvinced that is your option. If you can prove otherwise go ahead. read carefully and stop trying to be p icky again.

Mikling: When did you notice that one being darker? Did you keep two sets of WJ797 in stock and ship one to customers with CLI-8 ink cartridge and ship the other to customs with BCI-6? How did you order the two stocks from Image Specialists if they had a same part number? How and when did you know to order two different WJ797 inks? I hope you don't feel this as a negative publicity to you. It is an IS issue. Just think that IS customers deserve to know the fact. Thank you.

 

[rodbam]

I have read that each new batch of ink from any manufacturer & every new box of photo paper should be profiled but as Mikling said would we notice the difference. Profiling costs one A3 sheet of expensive photo paper & on the pension I won't be bothering unless I see something wrong in the new batch/paper combination.

 

[Grandexp]

Take this other aspect for example, Epson Professional wide format printers are calibrated in the factory to be within 3% tolerance if my memory serves me right. Heck, that tolerance is wider than the aftermarket ink.

Does this imply that Epson inks are no better than after market inks? I don't know about the 3% number. Why not 4%, 2% or whatever I don't know. I thought ink formulation is always very precise. It should be in order to yield precision colors and quality. I am not sure if OEM is always better. Are you saying Image Specialists inks are also calibrated within 3% error margin?

What about paper? Now here's the kicker, there is never any discussion of the tolerance of desktop units and they all use the same profiles via the driver package and don't think that they are tweaked more than a mufti thousand dollar pro unit from the factory. So in essence a reality check is required when one is getting picky on desktop units and small variations. Reality check. Maybe that is why custom ICCs for the very printer, ink and paper you have is required if you wanted to be a al about it. Real pros do that and is always an option.

Good point Mikling. Indeed there was never a discussion about this issue. Why don't you start a thread to discuss about it? Let's focus on the original subject for now. Thanks.

 

[mikling]

All printers hardware wise print differently to some extent. Professional printers are tested and trimmed so that one will print similarly to another because they are meant to be used in exacting situations where exacting output is necessary and repeatibility between machines is a factor. Their variances can be greater than the variances involved with inks. Epson pro printers are trimmed hardware wise to within 3%. IS color target tolerance is 2% for their inks. What is the tolerance for the so called newer inks? Hmmmmm.....You better give them a call... and quickly and then drop the phone. Is someone reading what they want to read and hear just what they want to hear?

If you read the label for many items you purchase the mfr. can change the contents as long as the contents performed as they did before. There is no need to call this an IS issue. Do you check the gasoline you purchase from every gas station? Each batch is slightly different.

 

[Grandexp]

Mikling: I am one of the people who don't care much about a few percent of process variation. I don't know if 3% is good or bad. I did not have a problem with Image Specialists inks if there was a 3% of variation of whatever in the inks. Most people probably won't feel it and won't be bothered. It may be a non issue to some. It may be a serious issue to Stratman and the hat. They are hiding(?) today. I don't know if they will agree or not.

The subject matter of this thread is if Image Specialists is selling inks for the latest Canon printers with a 10 year old formulation. I don't think you really know the answer unless Image Specialists notifies its resellers including you whenever any ink is reformulated without been assigned with a new part number. I was specifically told by Image Specialists that if an ink is reformulated to make an improvement it will be assigned with a new part number.

Although I don't really care I am surprised. It seems reasonable and logical that a quality compatible ink manufacturer will always keep track of the evolution of OEM inks and reformulate with better if not the best available materials mainly color dyes and pigments to defeat competitions and satisfy the need from its customers desire for better inks. Canon has the freedom of releasing new printers with new design of ink cartridges and the new and better inks. Compatible ink manufacturers can and should also reformulate, assign new part numbers and support their customers with the best they can offer.

For smaller compatible ink resellers I will not be surprised if their ink sold today is not a same they sold say 3 or 5 years ago if their current offering is a better one today. This probably only applies to resellers with good reputation only.

 

[turbguy]

3% of.....what? Is there a unit of measure for color?