Dye or Pigment Printer for Offset Paper (Sappi, Navajo & Others)

[mediopolis]

Hi Everyone,

I stumbled across this forum when i was looking for a new printer to purchase, and it is awesome. Hopefully some of you experts could help me a bit. Here goes...

My old printer (Epson 1280) just died on me and it's time for a new one. I am thinking of either Canon Pixma 10 or 100. But not sure if I should go pigment or dye based for what I am doing. I have searched for 12x18 double sided inkjet papers which are nowhere to be found. So I have been printing client samples on the same papers I use for client projects coming from offset presses and HP Indigo printers, such as Sappi McCoy & Opus with Silk/ Gloss/Matte finishes. Weights can range from 100gsm text to 352gsm cover stock. Some of the other papers I have printed on with the Epson are Sappi Somerset, Magno, HannoArt. Also, Mohawk brand navajo. I also use these papers to cut/fold for sample product packaging.

I print sample spreads on these kinds of papers, but wanted to know if anyone has tried to print on these papers also. Should I go with a Pigment or Dye based printer for the best results? I am thinking pigment as the ink sits on top the paper, but not sure. When i printed on the Epson it would come out ok and i would let things dry well before touching the ink. Is pigment inks more closely related to inks used on Offset presses?

I wish there was a company that made double sided 12x18 inkjet paper in satin/gloss finishes. I was thinking about going laser (magicolor 7450II grafx), but just hesitant to spend $3,000 and not get the results for that price. I can't return the printer after purchase.

Thanks for any insight!

 

[The Hat]

Most offset papers are suitable and do work to a certain degree on inkjet printers
using either dye or pigment inks theres really no difference in print quality.

Inkjet printers work much better on all digital, canvas and laid papers and that is the same for the heavier card stock also,
bond paper and pulp board will work but give poorer results on nearly all of them.

That said the only way to know for sure is to get samples of the paper you would normally use
and take it along to a high street shop and ask them if you can you print
a few sample sheets on one of their printers on display.

But if you can afford to buy a digital laser printer that would be the best and most sensible option
because it can print on 95% of all offset papers no problem and it would be more reliable than a single inkjet printer.

A digital printer will still have a problem handling 350 gm paper and so if that is the type of weight youre talking about
then try and get one with a very low paper input angle like an OKI ES9410 or a cheaper model.

I hope this is a help to you and it gives you a better idea which way to go,
Id love a digital laser myself but cant get enough work to justify owning one..

 

[mediopolis]

Thx. The Hat...

I am going to.check out the oki you mentioned. Where I live even though a semi big city, nobody has these canons or high end epsons on display for testing. So I think I'll go with the pixma pro100. The komica grfx is meant for graphic designers but I have tried to get that company to print me samples of my work on their printer with sappi paper I would send them, but they won't. very annoying! and all the laser printers I see usually have some small order or streaking on rich black, when printed on large areas. And the color accuracy seems better when matching pantone on inkjets.

I definitely appreciate the feedback and thoughts. I stopped and ordered the pro100 with precision color inks while typing this

 

[cls]

Hi Mediopolis,
Any Wideformat Inkjet printer like the Pro100 or old models from Canon Pro9000 Canon PIXMA iX7000 and even wideformat Epson Printers like the Stylus Photo 1400, 2100/2200 would work just fine for proofing and preview issues if you calibrate it individually to the spesisific refill ink.

I myself have a rather old Stylus Pro 4000 (paid USD 140 for it) using Octopus Refillinks and printing ALOT of stuff on it. Sometimes the machines runs from 09.00 to 23.00 with small interruptions inbeetween to change the paperroll.

Its up to you and how much you print on a daily basis.

I have ALOT Printers, and for exeption of the Xerox ColorQube machines I only own Epson Inkjet printers.
From Photograph to greetingcards and other stuff I print a lot for my customers on demand CHEAPER than any other online solution.

How much do you print?

 

[mediopolis]

I print a bunch. this week for example when I get the new Canon. I have a 300 page cookbook proof that needs to be printed. plus a few other projects. I also like you will print small runs of projects for clients... mini brochures things like that. That is another reason I am happy about using refills. the Epson costs ate a pretty penny over the years.

What do you think is the best method of profiling new papers like my Sappi so that it lays the correct amount of ink down on the paper? Sometimes on certain weights the Epson 1280 would lay down to much and saturate the paper.

 

[JonatanS]

Hi!
Did you buy the printer? How did it work out for you?
I recently bought the Canon Pixma Pro 100.
I planned on using it for printing both photos aswell as packaging designs on heavyweight cartonnage papers.

I've been testing it on a bunch of different offset-papers to see what works and what doesn't. I tested the following papers:
Uncoated: Rives Tradition Natural White 300g, Ivory Board 280g (matte coated), Algro Design 300g uncoated, Maxi Offset 250g, Conqueror Texture Laid 250g, Scandia2000 white 240g, Amber Graphic 200g, Edixion 170g, Soporset 100g
Silk/Satin coated: Arctic volume 250g, Tom&Otto Silk 150g
Gloss coated: Trucard Gloss 300g coated, Maxi Gloss 300g, Maxi Gloss 170g, Fasson Crackback.

Overall the uncoated papers and matte coated papers (ivory board) works ok.
The print gets pretty washed out, but the surface gets smoothly matte with pretty good details.
I found that for most uncoated papers the Plain Paper printer profile gave the best result.
On some of the heavier papers, especially Rives Tradition and Conqueror papers, the Fine Art Paper 1 profile gave a better result. These papers had the overall best results.
(I have not tried to make my own profiles, just tested the ones that come with the printer, so you could probably get a little better results)

Coated offset papers such as gloss and satin does not work well. The colors get distored and greyish with uneven "mottled" solid color areas. Directly after printing you can see wet ink floating on the surface in the darker areas as the coated papers don't absorb the ink as well as the uncoated.

If you plan to print a lot on offset papers and expect fairly good image quality and color saturation i would recommend getting a laser printer instead.
For my inkjet photo printer i will mainly opt for specific photo-papers and occasionally use some heavyweight cardboard for simple packaging designs and some textured design papers for greeting/invitation cards etc.

 

[stratman]

Great first post JonatanS. Welcome to the forum.

 

[mediopolis]

Hey JonatanS... I did get the printer and I ran into the exact same issues you did printing on the Offset press stocks with gloss/silk finishes. The matte's do a little better but not acceptable quality. The ink saturates to much and also sits on the top of the page on the coated stocks... I really wish they would make an offset quality paper for inkjet...

The best i have found so far is Inkpress brand Duo for double sided prints on my inkjet.

Offset paper I have tried in most weights
Sappi Opus Gloss = horrible
Sappi Opus Dull = horrible
Sappi McCoy Silk = horrible
Sappi McCoy Gloss = horrible
Mohawk Navajo Digital = works fairly well.. its my standard printing paper. great feel.
Inkpress Duo Semi Gloss = great
Inkpress Pro Silky = great
Inkpress Luster Duo = great

 

[crenedecotret]

Sorry to butt in.. I found a company local to me that has tons of different papers. I am thinking of visiting them on monday to pickup a few different ones to try.
Can anyone make some recommendations based on what they have? their site is papex dot ca

 

[The Hat]

They do have a good range of different papers to pick from,
so the question is can you get sample packs there ?

If not then the ones I would recommend to you would be any of the copy papers,
laid paper, linen paper, Self Adhesive (Fasson) and some of wove papers, the rest no, not good.

You can get lucky with some of the Metallic papers dough..