Dye ink in a Pigment Cart

[martin0reg]

@russell
What sort of subjects you are printing, graphical subjects ("silouettes" --) which are like "two tone" design or b&w photography, with continous graduations of grey?

Your approach reminds me of "black only" (BO) mode with Epson 6-color dye printers. Some users at dpreview had found a setting, which makes the epson print with the black ink only. Similar to your setting for Canon. But Epson has no "Textblack" (PGI), so there is need to change inks, the printer will use the K channell only-
Very neutral and good looking prints can be made.. but there are two downsides:
- Using only one ink channell and nozzle row will reduce the resolution to a fraction of the whole nozzle count. It'sonly visible with a loupe or if you have young eyes and put your nose on the print...it looks kind of grainy, but with deep blacks, like a wet print from Kodak Tri.X...
I had an issue with banding or stripes, whenever only one nozzle of my R285 (P50) was not shooting (on Epson nozzle checks you can see the single nozzles as steps)
These issues, an even uniform grainyness (which can be pleasing) and an uneven banding were more visible when I tried BO with a Canon, which means the PGI channel
- 3rd party dye inks are less stable than OEM, and OEM dyes are less stable than pigment..
Therefor some users of the BO method changed the black dye ink the other way around, pigment instead of dye. [You can do this with a piezo head, but NOT with a Canon "bubble jet" head!]

Years ago, @mikling from Precisioncolors had a 4-channel B&W dye ink set, especially for Canon 5-channel printers, with 3 shades of grey at the C M and Y position. I used this a lot, but changed to a B&W set for the Epson 6-color printers. Best tonality, full resolution and best resistance against UV and ozone. Ink is called "Carbon" pigment, and you have to change MK and PK for matte and glossy paper, just like a color pigment printer.

 

[russell]

To all who are re-filling cartridges from Precision Colors; How many re-fillings of my PGI-250 cartridge can I expect before it malfunctions, wears out or just plain needs replaced? Or do they last indefinitely? I'm not sure if PC will sell me just one cartridge and I'll be pissed if I have to buy the whole set of 6 just to get one for $42.

 

[russell]

@russell
What sort of subjects you are printing, graphical subjects ("silouettes" --) which are like "two tone" design or b&w photography, with continous graduations of grey?

Your approach reminds me of "black only" (BO) mode with Epson 6-color dye printers. Some users at dpreview had found a setting, which makes the epson print with the black ink only. Similar to your setting for Canon. But Epson has no "Textblack" (PGI), so there is need to change inks, the printer will use the K channell only-
Very neutral and good looking prints can be made.. but there are two downsides:
- Using only one ink channell and nozzle row will reduce the resolution to a fraction of the whole nozzle count. It'sonly visible with a loupe or if you have young eyes and put your nose on the print...it looks kind of grainy, but with deep blacks, like a wet print from Kodak Tri.X...
I had an issue with banding or stripes, whenever only one nozzle of my R285 (P50) was not shooting (on Epson nozzle checks you can see the single nozzles as steps)
These issues, an even uniform grainyness (which can be pleasing) and an uneven banding were more visible when I tried BO with a Canon, which means the PGI channel
- 3rd party dye inks are less stable than OEM, and OEM dyes are less stable than pigment..
Therefor some users of the BO method changed the black dye ink the other way around, pigment instead of dye. [You can do this with a piezo head, but NOT with a Canon "bubble jet" head!]

Years ago, @mikling from Precisioncolors had a 4-channel B&W dye ink set, especially for Canon 5-channel printers, with 3 shades of grey at the C M and Y position. I used this a lot, but changed to a B&W set for the Epson 6-color printers. Best tonality, full resolution and best resistance against UV and ozone. Ink is called "Carbon" pigment, and you have to change MK and PK for matte and glossy paper, just like a color pigment printer.

Yes, I'm printing continuous tone subject matter. Mostly people on the street, in subways. Some silhouettes but otherwise deep shadows, people wearing dark coats, etc. But with the pigment text black in the PGI-250 cartridge I was only able to get a dark gray in the darkest areas. The rest of the tones (grays) ended up with a faint tannish-brownish tint if not high in contrast. I did not see this until I eventually compared them with prints I had done years ago on a small Epson 4 color printer using just the dye black. That's when I decided to see if replacing the pigment text black cart. with one filled w/photo black dye ink (Precision Colors) would work. It does --- so far.
Now I'm wondering if I should go back to pigment black (not text black) since you stressed their stability over OEM/3rd party. I'm assuming it would work because the original was pigment text black > replaced with photo black dye > maybe replaced w/pigment photo black. The thing is I'm not sure there is a formulated pigment photo black available to work in my Canon PIXMA ip8720 printer.

 

[PeterBJ]

The pigment inks used in Canon pigment photo printers like the Pro 9500 and Pro 10 and more models are very different from the pigment black ink used for plain paper in the pigment black plus dye colour printers like the iP8720.

The cartridges for the pigment inks contain no sponges, instead they keep the ink in a spring loaded plastic/aluminium bladder. These pigment inks might clog a sponged cartridge and possibly also ruin a print head not designed for these inks.

I think it is risky trying to use the photo pigment black in PGI-250 cartridge.

 

[stratman]

The pigment inks used in Canon pigment photo printers like the Pro 9500 and Pro 10 and more models are very different from the pigment black ink used for plain paper in the pigment black plus dye colour printers like the iP8720.

How are the pigment inks in the pigment only printers different than the pigment black found in dye-based printers?

 

[russell]

The pigment inks used in Canon pigment photo printers like the Pro 9500 and Pro 10 and more models are very different from the pigment black ink used for plain paper in the pigment black plus dye colour printers like the iP8720.

The cartridges for the pigment inks contain no sponges, instead they keep the ink in a spring loaded plastic/aluminium bladder. These pigment inks might clog a sponged cartridge and possibly also ruin a print head not designed for these inks.

I think it is risky trying to use the photo pigment black in PGI-250 cartridge.

The PrecisionColors PGI-250 cartridge I'm filling w/PC25X-BK dye ink DOES have a sponge. The cartridge is clear and I can see the sponge as well as the clear reservoir enabling me to monitor the progress of the filling. The complicated technology of printers, print heads, cartridges, etc is incomprehensible to most people including me so I cannot dispute your comments. But -- if the PC PGI-250 cartridge is designed to push pigment text ink (formulated to print text on plain paper) into the print head but is now pushing photo black DYE ink (using the 'plain paper' setting) into the print head printing continuous-tone b&w photos (I assume the printer thinks it is printing text), then my application of my limited common sense tells me that if the same cartridge is filled with PIGMENT photo black (if available/applicable to my printer) then there should be no problem except for the possibility, as you say, of the pigment ink clogging the sponge. But, as I mentioned above, PC did provide me with a sponged PGI-250 cart and so far it's working. But it's not to say that there is no damage being done in the long run which is why I've queried in another post about the longevity of refillable cartridges.

 

[PeterBJ]

The pigment black ink for plain paper only doesn't stick to photo paper. I think the pigment photo black ink does.

See this from Precision Colors, notice the paragraph at the lower left about Canon OEM cartridges for pigment photo inks. Also note the link to an explanation about how these cartridges work. Notice that sponged cartridges don't work well with these inks.

Also see this post and this by @pharmacist.

 

[stratman]

Thanks, @PeterBJ

Larger pigment particles designed for pigment only printers:

1) Can clog the smaller openings in the ink inlet port for the pigment ink in a primarily dye-based print head, and,

2) Have a tendency to settle and need to be agitated in the cartridge to re-suspend them in solution from time to time.

 

[martin0reg]

@russell
Although I agree with PeterBJ, I understand your argumentation ... but if you try than you will take the risk ... report success or failure....
What I know for sure:
- Don't use ink for epson piezo heads in canon thermal heads
- Canon text black (in the thicker cart) may be different from other pigment (matte) black.
(to me it looks like "carbon" black ink of a pure B&W ink set, you may actually see the very fine particles in the solution. The solution of inks in general is of a certain viscosity, depending on the size of pigments and maybe the size of nozzles too...)
- The PGI channel is a "special" one, with a special nozzle row, and in the way how the printer will use it: only when set on "plain paper" and only for blacks beyond a certain value, I think...
I don't have pigment ink printers from canon, but in my epson printers
- photo black (pigment ink) on matte paper is not as deep as matte black
- and matte black don't stick on glossy or semi glossy

PS: my advice: whenever you experiment with inks in canon printers, look for the price and availability of a spare printhead...

 

[PeterBJ]

There might be one more reason not to do the experiment with the pigment photo black in the PGI-250 cartridge. It looks like print heads of the PGI-x50/CLI-x51 generation and possibly newer are more fragile than previous print heads, and that the nozzles in the pigment black can be damaged by a refill ink with unsuitable cooling properties. See this.