Competition in the refill market (and the tactics used)

[websnail]

Sort of a ponderable question here but I'm sure one that anyone with an email account or who's seen other forums like this, has wondered about...

What is it with the whole refill cart, bulk ink and general inkjet market when it comes to the marketing tactics employed by a large number of companies trying to push their product. :/

I mean, I've realised that there is virtually no point in posting an opinion on the subject of a particular ink, kit or manufacturer until you've built up a reputation as someone who knows what they're doing, has helped out in the community, etc... or else as soon as you profer an opinion on anything like "the best ink", you're in dire danger of being condemned as a spammer.

This hasn't happened directly (ie: nobody's posted) but I've found that myself, I've sat here and looked through posts on this, and a whole slew of other forums, and found plenty of reasons not to trust consumer recommendations or glib reviews promoting one product over another. Ironically I probably would take a large part of my own advice with a pinch of salt because I'm a relative n00b to the whole printer scene in terms of forums... and in a weird way it's mainly due to the fact that there simply hasn't been any sort of forum available for CIS systems that isn't run by a manufacturer or so badly moderated that it ends up being spammed constantly with "recommendations".

Perhaps the real icing on the cake for me was when a colleague of mine, specialising in search engine optimisation made a very strong case for removing my own CIS fledgling forum from one I established a long time ago. His reasoning was simple... "It will attract spamming" and having looked at a number of other forums like "PBase" I have to admit the practice is rife.

So, thinking about it, is this something that other users have found a lot?.. and given that this forum is undoubtedly experiencing similar issues (or will as it climbs the google ratings) what sort of policies, practices and settings are you considering to try and stem the flow of rubbish?

One thing I would be interested in getting more opinions on would be a ideas for accepting user reviews on a particular product and the sort of requirements someone would put in place to try and ensure a fair appraisal and not just another marketing ploy...


Anyways, just a long ponderance for you on a friday (probably too much thinking involved for the weekend though )

Cheers

Martin

 

[Manuchau]

There are a number of people here who conribute greatly, and after being here a bit longer, you will see that you can indeed take their (often scientific) opinions on the matter.
However, print quality is like beauty..it's partially in the eye of the beholder.
Many ink companies are often very happy to send you free samples of their inks...as an example, try http://www.image-specialists.com/desktop.htm

By a cheap printer on ebay, and try various companies free inks.. You''ll have fun, and you will learn a lot in the process.

Best of luck!!

 

[panos]

My 2 cents:

1) Users should post scanned samples of their print results.

2) Companies pushing their products: I would take them more seriously if they would send a free sample to an established member such as Rob or Grandad or Craig for testing and evaluation.

BTW. Where is Craig ?

 

[fotofreek]

Panos - Both good ideas. Problem is 1)the scanner would have to be accurately calibrated for the submission to provide decent info. 2) I would be reluctant to put "brand x" ink through my printer. I've zeroed in on MIS inks and don't even bother to try Formulabs or Hobbicolors, two of the bulk inks that have been highly praised by very knowledgeable contributors to this forum. I do agree with you that it is very difficult to know the difference between the hype from people with vested interests and a recomendation from a satisfied user of a product. Fortunately we have very trusted people on the forum who give their honest appraisals of the pros and cons of the materials they have used.

 

[Grandad35]

Panos,

1. As Fotofreek stated, each submitter's scanner needs to be profiled in order to keep the results consistent. It is also necessary for everyone to print exactly the same image to eliminate that as a variable. Even then, there are still potential color variations caused by the selection of the printing software, printer profile, paper, driver settings, etc. Unless the person doing the printing is very familiar with color management, it would be risky to trust their prints/scans when comparing inks. About 2 months ago, Fotofreek, JV, Rob and I tried to find a way to print "standard" ink samples onto a standard paper so that we could take exact color readings with a spectro (http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=499). The goal was to post the color of each ink to make these color comparisons easy. Unfortunately, we could not come up with an acceptable printing method, and the project was abandoned. The goals of this project still have merit, and I am still willing to take the readings if someone can develop an acceptable ink laydown procedure.
2. I appreciate the trust that you place in my tests and opinions, but I (like Fotofreek) do not want to use my printer for such experiments. When I started experimenting with refilling, my goal was to achieve the performance/reliability that I am now enjoying. As I have written several times in the past, my i9900 is working so well that I do not want to even switch to OEM carts for a test.
3. Color is important, but it is not the only factor to consider when looking at inks (http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=3094#p3094). Testing all of these factors requires an extended test over several hundred prints and numerous cart changes.

 

[websnail]

Just a quick note regarding testing...

I was told not too long ago by a very experienced Search Engine Optimisation (SEO) specialist (who also happens to be a friend) that there's a very real market in the area of Inks and ink refills (for google adsense, etc..) and were anyone to actively look at testing and publishing as part of a business plan it would be very well worth while. He said something about Aventure selling clicks for around $2+ a click. So, not something to sneeze at.

Of course the problems are that you'd need multiple printers, an experienced end user with the necessary experience with colour profiles, etc... AND the technical ability to unclog and/or replace print heads that would undoubtedly result from some pretty lousy inks.

As it goes, I'm concentrating solely on the CIS side of things and seeing how they work given that the kits are the only main variable and my MIS inks are of a constant quality. Works for me... but there does seem to be something of an opening out there.

 

[Hendo]

Hi Websnail,

"One thing I would be interested in getting more opinions on would be a ideas for accepting user reviews on a particular product and the sort of requirements someone would put in place to try and ensure a fair appraisal and not just another marketing ploy..."

This new medium "the internet" has to be taken with a grain of salt.

We have more information then we know what to do with. The internet is the perfect example of the old saying "don't believe everthing you read". Anyone that builds up a reputation in this medium will innevitably become self promoting.

"I mean, I've realised that there is virtually no point in posting an opinion on the subject of a particular ink, kit or manufacturer until you've built up a reputation as someone who knows what they're doing, has helped out in the community, etc... or else as soon as you profer an opinion on anything like "the best ink", you're in dire danger of being condemned as a spammer."

First it was a "commi" than a "homosexual" today it's a "spammer". As soon as you state an opinion, we create a new label. We are a society built on a fear of the unknown.

We are use to companies pumping out ads through traditional means... we are know longer scared. Now that the playing field has change those same companies push for legislation on spamming.

"So, thinking about it, is this something that other users have found a lot?.. and given that this forum is undoubtedly experiencing similar issues (or will as it climbs the google ratings) what sort of policies, practices and settings are you considering to try and stem the flow of rubbish?"

How many tree's need to be cut down to tell you about the latest credit card you need. Soon we will be spammed from our Hotmail, Yahoo, and MSN accounts, they will sell ad space on the top of every email, and if anyone else sends you an email for a product....SPAMMER. If you have a good product and you want people to know what else are you to do.

"Perhaps the real icing on the cake for me was when a colleague of mine, specialising in search engine optimisation made a very strong case for removing my own CIS fledgling forum from one I established a long time ago. His reasoning was simple... "It will attract spamming" and having looked at a number of other forums like "PBase" I have to admit the practice is rife."

SPAMMER?...LOL

You and your "colleague" are trying to promote your new business as "serch engine optimizers".

You work for "PBase" and this forum is a good place to advertise.

You SPAMMER...Very clever of you.

 

[websnail]

"Perhaps the real icing on the cake for me was when a colleague of mine, specialising in search engine optimisation made a very strong case for removing my own CIS fledgling forum from one I established a long time ago. His reasoning was simple... "It will attract spamming" and having looked at a number of other forums like "PBase" I have to admit the practice is rife."

SPAMMER?...LOL

You and your "colleague" are trying to promote your new business as "serch engine optimizers".

You work for "PBase" and this forum is a good place to advertise.

You SPAMMER...Very clever of you.

First off a quick pointer on using bbcode.. it helps if you quote quotes using the bbcode for [ quote ] then it's easier to see what you're quoting and not confuse what you're saying with what has been said by someone else.. If you get my drift.. just helps avoid confusion.

As to your post... You're right.. the "SPAMMER!" label is an easy way of grouping or labelling some people but it's pretty easy to see that there are plenty of examples of people claiming to be "happy customers" when in fact they're just bigging up their own products.. They're tend to be easy to spot because of the language they use, the fact that they include ALL positives and no negatives, and use terms like "best ever"... "amazing", etc...

As to your last bit about my own site... well yes, I've highlighted it's there and I do occassionally ask people to post their own experiences on my forum when they have something very relevant to CIS kits because that's what my forum is for. And yes, you could see that as spamming given your own interpretation.. however just to put you straight.. my SEO colleague is someone I speak to about once every 3 months and that's about his trekking, a few pointers on a couple of projects I'm hitting problems with or vice versa and how the other half is... There's no conspiracy here.. but hey, irony is alive and well so you can just call me a spammer..

 

[Hendo]

Test:

First off a quick pointer on using bbcode.. it helps if you quote quotes using the bbcode for [ quote ] then it's easier to see what you're quoting and not confuse what you're saying with what has been said by someone else.. If you get my drift.. just helps avoid confusion.

I see, sorry for the confusion.

I am glad you seen my post as light hearted when I used you as an example.