Canon CLI Cartridge
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Interesting but the thing with the Canons is not that they're evil, which is what that page is setting out to "prove" but that they've made some changes that really affect the viability of 3rd party ink cartridges.fish said:
Note, I only mention cartridges here as there really is nothing stopping people refilling their cartridges despite the tech's declarations, it's already been proven more than possible. It's even possible to convert the cartridges into CIS systems and using them that way although Canon haven't exactly helped that along with certain aspects of their printer design (gaps are pretty small, etc..)
Add to that I can really start to see why Canon have opted for a chipped system if it allows them to stop some people from putting the wrong cartridge in the wrong slot (Something I've seen 3 seperate users do now) and identify when there's an issue like a broken, occluded or faulty prism (which might indicate a bad cartridge and subsequently a potential cause of a printhead failure)
Don't get me wrong I can see that Canon have not exactly gone out of their way to make life easier for refillers either but at least they haven't attempted to trap people into lying like Epson did. Not sure how many of your know this but Epsons whole strategy with chips is to include the phrase "this is a genuine epson cartridge" in the chip programming.. the printer is tasked to look for this phrase but does so in a sort of keyword search way. The intention was to force out 3rd party chip makers and thus cartridges because if someone "lied" and used that phrase verbatim there was legal grounds for passing off.. Instead there's all sorts of careful tinkering to get round the problem but Epson definitely set out to stop 3rd party cartridges completely and their legal challenges of late do nothing to dispel this.
Canon on the other hand actually do make it possible to refill, they aren't challenging the "swap your chip to a filled cartridge" alternative and just put in a rather common sense "you use 3rd party ink and it breaks the printer, well on your own head be it" approach. I mean everyone knows of people who screw up some equipment themselves but then send it back under warranty because they figure the company has too much money to care.. So, this is a point where you can't lie and I seriously wonder if they'd say no to a warranty repair if your paper feed went crunch through no fault of 3rd party ink use.. Time will tell..
Anyways, I'm aware that this may sound like a little supportive of Canon but I do wonder if the people who are most p*ssed off about this are the 3rd party cartridge manufacturers themselves, after all they really want their slice of the pie and they aren't doing it for our benefit.. nope.. it's about profit...
Right, time for a breather... over to everyone else..
headphonesman
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The most surprising thing for me in the "AtlasCopy Letters" was the statement by Canon in the fourth Reply from Canon :-
"The Smart Chip was placed in these ink tanks to prevent use of third party ink, because Canon (and all other printer companies ), make most of their profit from selling ink, not from selling printers."
This ,we all knew , already......but at last Canon has at last properly explained itself in print.
Canon must make a profit , whatever way it sees fit,....... long may it do so and keep producing leading edge Printers.
Canon are currently maintaining a profit by selling a small amount of highly priced ink to a few people who only print occasionaly , but I fear that after their 2nd or 3rd purchase of a set of ink they may decide that their next printer will not be a Canon. No profit,no way for Canon.
Meanwhile the people who print a lot are forced to resort to third party inks.........they need quantity............which you cannot afford from Canon !.....If Canon did a survey of how many Canon owners are resorting to third party inks they would be shocked at the potential market they are losing because of their unrealistic pricing of their ink.
(NB Canon should never think that amending the printer to refuse re-fills completely will force the the rest of us in line to buying its overpriced ink ......it will not.....It will force us into buying HP or Epson instead )
Canon need to be bold and reduce prices to a level just above the the best 3rd party ink suppliers, that way they would keep their Occasional and their Heavy User Customers. They can keep the Smart Chip going in its present form, but it would be redundant......People would buy Canon Ink all the time because of the Cost and Quality.
(PS...Canon perhaps you could run a trial of cheap ink in one country first.......say the UK ?)
"The Smart Chip was placed in these ink tanks to prevent use of third party ink, because Canon (and all other printer companies ), make most of their profit from selling ink, not from selling printers."
This ,we all knew , already......but at last Canon has at last properly explained itself in print.
Canon must make a profit , whatever way it sees fit,....... long may it do so and keep producing leading edge Printers.
Canon are currently maintaining a profit by selling a small amount of highly priced ink to a few people who only print occasionaly , but I fear that after their 2nd or 3rd purchase of a set of ink they may decide that their next printer will not be a Canon. No profit,no way for Canon.
Meanwhile the people who print a lot are forced to resort to third party inks.........they need quantity............which you cannot afford from Canon !.....If Canon did a survey of how many Canon owners are resorting to third party inks they would be shocked at the potential market they are losing because of their unrealistic pricing of their ink.
(NB Canon should never think that amending the printer to refuse re-fills completely will force the the rest of us in line to buying its overpriced ink ......it will not.....It will force us into buying HP or Epson instead )
Canon need to be bold and reduce prices to a level just above the the best 3rd party ink suppliers, that way they would keep their Occasional and their Heavy User Customers. They can keep the Smart Chip going in its present form, but it would be redundant......People would buy Canon Ink all the time because of the Cost and Quality.
(PS...Canon perhaps you could run a trial of cheap ink in one country first.......say the UK ?)
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This works fine unless an informal agreement is reached between the different inkjet manufacturers that essentially forces out all other options. Of course if they went that route they'd just kill the market and create a massive opening for a new company.. and let's be honest would they really trust each other not to jump on the opportunity and go backheadphonesman said:
Yep... I'd agree.. never happen but it'd be nice if they'd at least consider it...
LOL... now we really are hoping
I for one am getting somewhat tired of too much Canon bashing. When you compare all the major ink jet printer makers---OEM cartridges to OEM cartridge---on a per page ink consumable cost----Canon still beats Epson by a small margin and HP, Lexmark, and Dell by a wider margin---at least on the middle grade printers and above---and the el-cheapies are all rip off machines ---with the lure being low initial purchase price---and the penality being over priced super small cartridges. But middle grade printers and above---Canon still enjoys a SMALL advantage.---by a factor of abour 1.4 X to 2X on consumable costs.
What we are all angry about is losing what was the HUGE Canon advantage best typified by the last generation of Canons that used the BCI-3&6 cartridges. The user could then save by a factor of up to 7X if they used pre-filled third party cartridges and 10 X to as high as 40 X if they refilled.----and anybody with a minimum of knowledge could get on the savings bandwagon---and a huge third party market developed to service that need.---and when photoprinting which is the costliest form of ink jet printing attained critical mass---the smart photoprinters
went Canon---and on this forum or Steves digicams---Canon users predominate.
And as a result Canon sold many high end photoprinters---with many very happy users----and were gaining market share at a promising rate---but Canon was suffering because these smart users were not buying their overpriced ink cartridges---and now Canon has struck back by raising the bar--making it harder for the user to refill and totally cutting the third party cartridge maker from market access. And now all other major inkjet printer are following---with ever smaller chipped cartridges that wack the buyers less hard in any one given purchase---but over time will net more because they deplete faster.
Canon, HP, Lexmark, Epson, Dell need not shut all off from refilling cartridges--but if they can make it ever harder for any but the very knowlegable to refill---their sales of overpriced cartridges will continue unabated--although Canons increase in market share is likely to start slipping.----because the key to addicting the customer is getting them to buy your brand of printer.
Right now one existing inkjet printer manufacter has not yet jumped on the chip bandwagon---and hence has a very good opportunity to make huge gains in market share----and that company is brother who makes a line of multifunctional
inkjet printers very attractively priced---but from what I read--they forgot to pair that with either quality of output or printer reliability--if brother can correct those latter two deficencies---they are poised to make huge gains in market share. If brother can get the market share --then they too can join in the chip bandwagon---but first they have to get the market share to be anything but a marginal player.
Also ignored on this thread is the specter of anti-trust and the US's Magnusson law.
With the latter stating its illegal to void a printer warranty if a consumer uses third party ink---so in at least the USA---Canon will tip toe on the issue of voiding warranties---for fear of getting enough complaints and finally being seen as violating the spirit of the law---but worldwide the anti-trust issue is far more of a threat to the inkjet printer manufactering cartel---who have been ripping off consumers on ink for decades---charging $2500 to better than $12500 dollars per gallon for a product that costs less than $25.00 a gallon to make.---but with all the present political outrages in the world----that issue just is not on many radar screens.---but if anti-trust action is ever taken---its likely to come from the EU --not the US.
But the trend is clear---and its going backward ---as inkjet printers get more and more expensive to use.---and it gets harder to beat the inkjet printer by refilling.
Not only is the consumer suffering---but the hand writing is on the wall for third parties who had about a 16% share of the 21 billion dollar worldwide replacement cartridge market--and are seeing themselves sqeezed out.
To retain their share with the fewer that refill---they will have to compete on more quality than on price---offering inks better than OEM on fading---which is going to mean that they will have to do some serious R&D or fall by the way side. But I seriously doubt Canon or any other manufacter is going to cut their own throats by
vending their OEM ink to refillers.
Meanwhile I will run my unchipped Canons until they totally wear out---and hope by then better alternatives have developed.
What we are all angry about is losing what was the HUGE Canon advantage best typified by the last generation of Canons that used the BCI-3&6 cartridges. The user could then save by a factor of up to 7X if they used pre-filled third party cartridges and 10 X to as high as 40 X if they refilled.----and anybody with a minimum of knowledge could get on the savings bandwagon---and a huge third party market developed to service that need.---and when photoprinting which is the costliest form of ink jet printing attained critical mass---the smart photoprinters
went Canon---and on this forum or Steves digicams---Canon users predominate.
And as a result Canon sold many high end photoprinters---with many very happy users----and were gaining market share at a promising rate---but Canon was suffering because these smart users were not buying their overpriced ink cartridges---and now Canon has struck back by raising the bar--making it harder for the user to refill and totally cutting the third party cartridge maker from market access. And now all other major inkjet printer are following---with ever smaller chipped cartridges that wack the buyers less hard in any one given purchase---but over time will net more because they deplete faster.
Canon, HP, Lexmark, Epson, Dell need not shut all off from refilling cartridges--but if they can make it ever harder for any but the very knowlegable to refill---their sales of overpriced cartridges will continue unabated--although Canons increase in market share is likely to start slipping.----because the key to addicting the customer is getting them to buy your brand of printer.
Right now one existing inkjet printer manufacter has not yet jumped on the chip bandwagon---and hence has a very good opportunity to make huge gains in market share----and that company is brother who makes a line of multifunctional
inkjet printers very attractively priced---but from what I read--they forgot to pair that with either quality of output or printer reliability--if brother can correct those latter two deficencies---they are poised to make huge gains in market share. If brother can get the market share --then they too can join in the chip bandwagon---but first they have to get the market share to be anything but a marginal player.
Also ignored on this thread is the specter of anti-trust and the US's Magnusson law.
With the latter stating its illegal to void a printer warranty if a consumer uses third party ink---so in at least the USA---Canon will tip toe on the issue of voiding warranties---for fear of getting enough complaints and finally being seen as violating the spirit of the law---but worldwide the anti-trust issue is far more of a threat to the inkjet printer manufactering cartel---who have been ripping off consumers on ink for decades---charging $2500 to better than $12500 dollars per gallon for a product that costs less than $25.00 a gallon to make.---but with all the present political outrages in the world----that issue just is not on many radar screens.---but if anti-trust action is ever taken---its likely to come from the EU --not the US.
But the trend is clear---and its going backward ---as inkjet printers get more and more expensive to use.---and it gets harder to beat the inkjet printer by refilling.
Not only is the consumer suffering---but the hand writing is on the wall for third parties who had about a 16% share of the 21 billion dollar worldwide replacement cartridge market--and are seeing themselves sqeezed out.
To retain their share with the fewer that refill---they will have to compete on more quality than on price---offering inks better than OEM on fading---which is going to mean that they will have to do some serious R&D or fall by the way side. But I seriously doubt Canon or any other manufacter is going to cut their own throats by
vending their OEM ink to refillers.
Meanwhile I will run my unchipped Canons until they totally wear out---and hope by then better alternatives have developed.
Fenrir Enterprises
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The way I see it, compared to HP's new microscopic 21/22 and 92/93 cartridges, and Epson's continued DuraClog issues, even using OEM ink on a Canon is a better savings than the other two brands.
The issue being, people see an $89 HP 3-in-one or a $79 Brother 4-in-one, and see the MP500 at twice the price, and refuse to buy it. Then complain that they have to buy new ink every five minutes.
Canon's 13 ml color and black tanks run about the same price as Epson's ($13), but I believe they're rated for higher yield due to the printer not running cleaning cycles every other moment.
All three companies charge outrageous prices for their ink, but I think Canon is the best deal, barring HP's Business Inkjet series. Of course if you buy the Canons with the printhead-on-cartridge tanks, then you're up the same creek as with HP.
The issue being, people see an $89 HP 3-in-one or a $79 Brother 4-in-one, and see the MP500 at twice the price, and refuse to buy it. Then complain that they have to buy new ink every five minutes.
Canon's 13 ml color and black tanks run about the same price as Epson's ($13), but I believe they're rated for higher yield due to the printer not running cleaning cycles every other moment.
All three companies charge outrageous prices for their ink, but I think Canon is the best deal, barring HP's Business Inkjet series. Of course if you buy the Canons with the printhead-on-cartridge tanks, then you're up the same creek as with HP.
Hello,
This is my first post to this, or any other, forum. I am the person who had the dialog with Canon tech support mentioned at the beginning of this thread. http://atlascopy.com/pixma.htm
DISCLAMER. Some things in this correspondence with Canon were not true. 1) I was not thinking about purchasing a printer with the chipped carts, I had already purchased one. 2) The threatening and mean things I said at the end I did not really mean but rather said out of frustration.
The first reply in this thread stated
"Interesting but the thing with the Canons is not that they're evil, which is what that page is setting out to "prove".."
My purpose in the dialog was not to prove Canon evil, but started with the naive notion that maybe they would tell me something.... OK that's ridiculous I knew they wouldn't tell me anything, I'm not sure what the purpose was, frustration at the new uncrackable chipped carts mostly. When they finally just came out and admitted that the purpose was to prevent third party ink, however, I was just dumbfounded. This dialog ended up on the web where it did because that is where I get my supplies and I just needed to share it with someone, so I sent it there and they asked if they could use it, and I said sure.
Actually, I like Canon printers One reason is the Pixma ip3000 printer that I have, is great! Print quality is fine, and the cartridges are so easy to refill. I use the small screw in the ball method where you just pop the same ball in and out repeatedly. This works great. I have refilled many times with absolutely no problems, yet. My previous experience was with HP15, 45, and 78 cartridges which was a nightmare.
I even bought my Daughter a Canon MP500 with the chipped cartridges to take to college. This is what got me started emailing Canon in the first place. She has yet to empty the first set of cartridges but I will be refilling them in the future, I just hope she does not end up burning up the print head when the ink monitor no longer functions with the refilled carts.
Will keep you posted on the results.
This is my first post to this, or any other, forum. I am the person who had the dialog with Canon tech support mentioned at the beginning of this thread. http://atlascopy.com/pixma.htm
DISCLAMER. Some things in this correspondence with Canon were not true. 1) I was not thinking about purchasing a printer with the chipped carts, I had already purchased one. 2) The threatening and mean things I said at the end I did not really mean but rather said out of frustration.
The first reply in this thread stated
"Interesting but the thing with the Canons is not that they're evil, which is what that page is setting out to "prove".."
My purpose in the dialog was not to prove Canon evil, but started with the naive notion that maybe they would tell me something.... OK that's ridiculous I knew they wouldn't tell me anything, I'm not sure what the purpose was, frustration at the new uncrackable chipped carts mostly. When they finally just came out and admitted that the purpose was to prevent third party ink, however, I was just dumbfounded. This dialog ended up on the web where it did because that is where I get my supplies and I just needed to share it with someone, so I sent it there and they asked if they could use it, and I said sure.
Actually, I like Canon printers One reason is the Pixma ip3000 printer that I have, is great! Print quality is fine, and the cartridges are so easy to refill. I use the small screw in the ball method where you just pop the same ball in and out repeatedly. This works great. I have refilled many times with absolutely no problems, yet. My previous experience was with HP15, 45, and 78 cartridges which was a nightmare.
I even bought my Daughter a Canon MP500 with the chipped cartridges to take to college. This is what got me started emailing Canon in the first place. She has yet to empty the first set of cartridges but I will be refilling them in the future, I just hope she does not end up burning up the print head when the ink monitor no longer functions with the refilled carts.
Will keep you posted on the results.
I can never imagine Canon or any major OEM to offer their ink in "bulk" form. There are many issues with bulk ink to the average consumer. If you think that some folks have problems putting the wrong inks into the wrong slot, can you imagine that same person seeing that they can refill themselves and it's Canon branded and endorsed by them ; so it's going to work properly. I could imagine the results. Never going to happen.
It's like this. Changing plugs on a vehicle or even topping up windshield washer fluid or checking the tire pressure may seem trivial to many of us. But I guarantee you that you will be surprised at the challenges faced by many consumers. These same people pay others to check their windhield fluid. Similar people buy new cartridges when it comes to printing. It offers consistent results with no problems and surprises. Can you imagine Johnny crying because he can't print out something. Just how much do you think Mommy or Daddy will pay to alleviate that crying. To them it's worth it. You have a business presentation tomorrow and you start getting banding on your output but boy that ink was cheap. Was it worth it?
As long as they still allow some method of refilling, I'm happy. If it means the death of the cheap compatible so be it but just let me refill.
It's like this. Changing plugs on a vehicle or even topping up windshield washer fluid or checking the tire pressure may seem trivial to many of us. But I guarantee you that you will be surprised at the challenges faced by many consumers. These same people pay others to check their windhield fluid. Similar people buy new cartridges when it comes to printing. It offers consistent results with no problems and surprises. Can you imagine Johnny crying because he can't print out something. Just how much do you think Mommy or Daddy will pay to alleviate that crying. To them it's worth it. You have a business presentation tomorrow and you start getting banding on your output but boy that ink was cheap. Was it worth it?
As long as they still allow some method of refilling, I'm happy. If it means the death of the cheap compatible so be it but just let me refill.
Manuchau
Printer Guru
Personally, I think that Canon has shot themselves in the foot. By making their cartridges proprietary, they have angered customers new and old.
I am against anything that takes choice away from the consumer, but unfortunately, there are at the moment few if any new models of inkjet printers that are inexpensive to operate. I really hope that there is an astute company - certainly not Brother- who will put out a decent printer which will give consumers more choices to refill or to use third party cartridges. Te market is wide-open now, and a printer like this would have broad appeal, and, in fact, should be marketed in such a way as to promote refilling...imagine what a selling point that could be..especially if it was made easy for the consumer, designed with a removeable plug for easy refilling, for example.
I still sell printers, and when asked for a recommendation, I just grit my teeth and recommend Canons. However, I sincerely hope that a brilliant entrepreneurial company will surprise the printing world and come out with a model with mass appeal. There is a pent-up demand right now. I won't hold my breath on this one....I'll just have to be patient like everyone else. This "screw the consumer" attitude has got to go......sigh.
I am against anything that takes choice away from the consumer, but unfortunately, there are at the moment few if any new models of inkjet printers that are inexpensive to operate. I really hope that there is an astute company - certainly not Brother- who will put out a decent printer which will give consumers more choices to refill or to use third party cartridges. Te market is wide-open now, and a printer like this would have broad appeal, and, in fact, should be marketed in such a way as to promote refilling...imagine what a selling point that could be..especially if it was made easy for the consumer, designed with a removeable plug for easy refilling, for example.
I still sell printers, and when asked for a recommendation, I just grit my teeth and recommend Canons. However, I sincerely hope that a brilliant entrepreneurial company will surprise the printing world and come out with a model with mass appeal. There is a pent-up demand right now. I won't hold my breath on this one....I'll just have to be patient like everyone else. This "screw the consumer" attitude has got to go......sigh.
