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Canon and CISS - why everyone has issue with air?

Discussion in 'InkJet Continuous Flow Systems' started by ILikeCanon, Apr 26, 2015.

  1. Oct 16, 2015
    goohobot

    goohobot Newbie to Printing

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    I use Canon MX397 and used to have air getting into the tubes too. One thing you can do about is putting the ink tank higher than your printer. Adjusting the height to increase the pressure. If you already have air in the ink line tubes, you will notice the ink starts flowing when you bring the ink tank up.

    It's common to have air problems with only one or two colors, not all of the colors. So I recommend buying the ink tanks that can be separated for each color (like in the picture below). In that way, you can adjust the height of one color ink tank without interfere other color ink tanks.

    http://76.my/Malaysia/canon-d-i-y-ciss-system-4-color-ink-lisajb-1007-31-LiSaJB@17.jpg

    Another solution is to use dampers / one way values:
    http://serena211.en.ecplaza.net/9.jpg
    http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/967/264/396/396264967_556.jpg
    I haven't used them myself. But they look promising.
     
  2. Oct 16, 2015
    ILikeCanon

    ILikeCanon Newbie to Printing

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    Yes, they were 90% full.

    I bought them, but they were not sufficient.
     
  3. Oct 16, 2015
    goohobot

    goohobot Newbie to Printing

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    Oh sorry, I read this thread a while back when I was googling. I've registered an account recently. I forgot you said you already have CISS with damper.

    From what I read about damper, there are a few models made in China but they don't work equally well. Can I have a picture of your printer + CSS + damper?
     
  4. Oct 16, 2015
    The Hat

    The Hat Printer VIP Moderator

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    The most common cause of air in the tube lines is not from the reservoir side of the CISS at all and fitting of little dampers into the tubing isn’t going to help one little bit either.

    Air is in fact ingested from the cartridge side when the printer is not active, the CISS system works on a very small vacuum so when the printer is not working the poor design of all of theses CISS systems tends to show it’s ugly face.

    Raising or lowering the reservoir bottles will only cause the ink to flood inside the printer and tends to cause even more problems, OEM CISS systems costs a lot more are of a very high quality and design and even they are know to fail from air ingestion on occasions.

    The best way to keep your printer and CISS happily married and singing from the same hymn sheet is to print daily without fail and when you’re CISS starts to give the usual troubles, then dump it and install a complete new one..
     
    thanhhuy123 likes this.
  5. Oct 16, 2015
    goohobot

    goohobot Newbie to Printing

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    I agree that the air is not from the reservoir. But, for the air to get in, the pressure has to be low. Initially, the inside cartridge, the tube are full of ink. If the air goes inside, it has to push the ink back (or to somewhere else). The ink can't just disappear, and be replaced by air. It has to go somewhere.

    What if the ink are always pushed forward by the pressure provided by the ink chamber and can't flow back because of the damper (also called one way value)?

    However, a damper also regulates ink flow, so the ink doesn't flow too fast. Therefore, there are different dampers for different types of ink. At least, that's what some sellers had told me. The design of damper is important as with the design of CIS systems as a whole. Buyers/users are also the testers.

    I meant to raise the reservoir a little bit to provide enough pressure. There is a good chance to have surplus pressure. But as long as ink doesn't drip from your print head and the printed pages come out fine, I guess it is ok. Also, your CISS kit probably has a tube clip to stop the ink from flowing in the ink line. You can lock it when your printer isn't in use.
     
  6. Oct 16, 2015
    The Hat

    The Hat Printer VIP Moderator

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    I figured my explanation might have been a bit hard to accept because it doesn’t sound like a plausible explanation for a standard Marriott CISS system.

    The ink reservoir bottles have to be at neutral pressure to allow the ink to flow to the cartridges when needed during operation, but by raising the reservoir up this can also cause a capillary action to take place when left ideal, and where air can get in, ink can easily flow out.

    A small vacuum will remain in the cartridge after printing for a long time but will be neutralised when air is eventually sucked in, because Canon cartridges don’t seal very well when used in conjunction with a CISS, you could say that, they are not properly designed to work successfully with a CISS.

    These dampers may well work on the Epson printers but a Canon print head must have ink inside it during operation and it’s unwise to try and restrict the ink flow because this can cause ink starvation to the head, no ink, no print head anymore.

    The Pro printers use a Vacuum pump to maintain sufficient ink supply to the print head at all times, and there is never any air allowed inside this type of CISS system, the cartridges are also vacuum sealed..
     
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  7. Oct 16, 2015
    martin0reg

    martin0reg Printer Master

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    I agree with the hat. The problem is air, not inkflow. So a tight sealing is needed, no surplus pressure of ink, I think.
     
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  8. Oct 17, 2015
    goohobot

    goohobot Newbie to Printing

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    In the picture below, we have two connected tanks. There is more water in the left tank then in the right tank, but the height of water is the same for both. In other words, water won't flow left to right, just because there is more water on the left.

    index.jpeg

    Again, in the picture below, we have two connected tanks but in a different way from the above. Assuming there is water in the pipe (which connects tank A to tank B). Do you think it still work the same? Should the level of water in tank B go down and the level of water in tank A go up until they are at the same height? I think yes.

    drawing.png

    Now, come to the print head. Well, you may already get my idea: the connection between the ink line and the print head doesn't have to be air tight. As long as, the reservoir stays within the range and the ink doesn't flow backward in the ink line, it should work fine.

    Let's put that aside. I read someone mentioned:
    a) air comes from the print head => If that's true, then it could happen even if you don't use CISS and use genuine cartridges.
    b) air comes in the lose face to face connection between cartridges and print heads. Silicon rings suppose to solve that problem. If not, then you can use genuine cartridges, and drill holes to connect ink lines.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  9. Oct 17, 2015
    The Hat

    The Hat Printer VIP Moderator

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    @goohobot, It’s not us that needs to be converted we already know that a CISS is lots of trouble and we are only trying to convince you the right and wrong way to run and maintain a CISS, all of your new ideas and suggestions have been tried before.

    The use of silicone washers are used extensively to prevent air entering the cartridges in all these CISS systems and are only partially successful during print operations but not while the printer remains ideal, there lies the problem.

    Regarding the Reservoir, the ink inside there should only flow one way, try this if you dare ! Take all the carts out of the printer and place them beside the ink reservoir and you’ll quickly see gravity and capillary action working nicely together to empty all of the ink from the reservoir bottles, it works believe me.

    Canon print heads just can’t operate with air inside them, so when you push the power button the first thing your printer does is to preform an integrity check between the heads and the cartridge before commencement, so if you have poor ink flow that usually means a under preforming cartridge or connection, (Replace immediately) and it you continue to print at that stage then it’s game over.

    Whether you use your OEM carts or not, you’ll always have endless trouble maintaining a CISS on all Canon printers and that’s a proven fact, and it usually takes the loss of a print head or the printer itself to convince a user of that ! Refilling OEM carts is by far a better and much safer option..
     
  10. Oct 17, 2015
    goohobot

    goohobot Newbie to Printing

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    @The Hat I don't deny the fact they CISSs don't work well with Canon printers (even sellers warned me about that). But my attitude is like:
    There is a problem. Why did it happen? Then, I do the research and put up some theory and a solution. If the solution doesn't work, then try the solution B, or rethink about my theory: why doesn't my solution work? There has to be a (better) solution, right?

    Here is another beta solution: What about using silicon/caulk gun to seal the connection between OEM carts and the ink joins AND the face-to-face contact. I haven't seen anyone do that. People can use silicon/caulk guns and glass panels to make fish tanks, so it is water tight.

    It may be a bit hard, but not impossible to remove the silicon, when you need to replace the carts later. If it works well for a long time, then it's work the mess.
     
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