<$50 vacuum refill apparatus, anybody tried this unit? Your thoughts?

[charlie1939]

I found this device, a home vacuum refill device, see it on the CompuBiz website at:

http://www.inkjetsaver.com/prounits.html

Even though it looks kind of lightweight, the guy who designed it told me that only one of about 250 units has failed (by a crack in the cover) and that was easily replaced. For the person like myself who will refill one HP "78" cartridge about once a month, it really looks like a clever, economical and very good approach to vacuum refilling of the nearly impossible to refill three color cartridges like the HP "78". I have three printers using these cartridges. Everything I have found to date to do this is ridiculously expensive ($thousands) and is aimed at the professional refiller business. This unit is obviously directed to the individual with a cost on the order of the replacement cost ($50-60) of a full OEM tri-color cartridge. It even looks like a good first unit for a person starting out on a shoestring as a professional refiller. You could buy one for each type of ink, since the entire unit cost is on the order of the cost of the custom cradles that some of the commercial refilling machine manufacturers sell!

Personally, I have tried to refill about 5-8 of my HP "78" cartridges. I usually can get one or two colors to print, but never all three for any length of time. I have tried following the directions with my refill kit, tried to use the "slow fill" allowing the ink to wick in with open syringes, used the "down under process" refill by "Jack", see the website:

http://home.arcor.de/jackspage/rat78ne.html

for the process, with some degree of success and used a Snap-n-Prime and syringe tool to try to remove air from the chambers between the sieve and the nozzles. NOTHING worked well enough to meet my standards of a cartidge that would print reliably and continually until it ran low on ink again.

With the addition of a hand operated vacuum pump (brake bleeder type) for about $20 to the device I am asking about, I think this would be the best solution for the difficult to refill tricolor cartirdge. With it we can really evacuate the ink chamber sponges as well as the chamber between the nozzle plate and the sieve. We can then allow the ink to slowly fill the sponges while the cartridge is under vacuum and then when the vacuum is released the ink should fill the chamber between the nozzle plate and the sieve. This seems to pretty much duplicate the OEM fill process and to be the ideal way to refill these difficult to refill cartridges.

Just for the record, I am working through a gallon of black pigmented ink for my Hp "45" cartridges, which fill like champs through the bottom. Up to 6-7 refills before they fail for one reason or another!! At this point , I have refilled about 16-20 times at about $1 worth of ink per fill. Not a bad return on my investment, Snap-n-Fill, syringe and a gallon of ink about $100 vs. new OEM cartridges at $25-30 or commercial refills at $10 or so! Saved about $350 vs. OEM or $110 vs. refilled cartridges! Plus I have about 75-80 refills to go if my printers don't wear out!

My questions to anyone and everyone:
1. Has anyone tried this particular refilling device? What was your experience?
2. Is(are) there a similiar low cost refilling device(s) on the market? Anyone tried it(them)? Your experience?
3. Any advice would be appreciated...
Thanks for your patience reading through this long post and for any advice you can give...
Charlie1939

 

[alchemist]

I have not used this device, but have one I made over 14 years ago that works the same way. I made mine out of plexiglass tubing and flat sheet material on the top and bottom. I used it to fill the HP 608 black and 25A tricolor cartridges. Works fine so should this device using standard components. One must be careful when releasing the vacuum to avoid letting the air mix with the ink in the foam.

Alchemist

 

[charlie1939]

Alchemist,
Thanks for the response to my query, I do have several questions that you might have dealt with in your own vacuum refilling experience.
Question I: When filling a tricolor HP cartridge like the "78", do you have an idea of the minimum, best and/or maximum vacuum level for best results? I am assuming that the cartridge is "emptied" by gently sucking it as dry as possible usiing my "priming tool" (with a 60 cc syringe) which is something like the Snap-n-Fill which I use for my "45 black cartridges. I plan to invest in a used electric vacuum pump. I have listed what I believe are the typical vacuum levels obtained when the pumps are deadheaded into a vacuum refilling apparatus like that from Compubiz.
1. Hand operated Mityvac type pump = to about 22-25 in. Hg, a "last resort", possible if I don't get a cheap used vacuum pump on eBay or some other location.
2. Single stage diaphragm electric pump = to about 20-22 in. Hg
3. Two stage (series connected) diaphragm electric pump = to about 26-28 in. Hg
4. Rotary vane (oil sealed) electric pump = to about 29.8-29.9 in. Hg
Question II: Which of these four possible options is the most preferable? Which is the least preferable, outside of the hand operated unit?
Question III: Do you, or anyone you can refer me to, know what vacuum levels are used in the OEM filling process at the HP factory for this cartridge?
Thanks in advance, Charlie1939

 

[ebiz96]

Hi Charlie


I bought inkjetsavers vacuum filling kit last year mainly to refill lexmark cartridges, however i added a compressed air vacuum generator bought from 'rs components' for $35 and plugged it in straight to the vacuum inlet point, and with incoming compressed air of around 7-8bars and vacuum out to the refilling vessel to 28-29 in hg.


And it works superbly, however to get best results the cartridge head must be fully hydrated from any clogges, for black cartridges this is simply done by dismentaling the cartridge and removing the sponge and wash the inner cartridge in running warm water, you can wash the sponge too, but i prefer to change it with new one or you can do this, put the print head in shallow tray or dish and soak in plain demineralised water for approx 4-5 hours sometimes longer depands on severity of blockage.


Once the cartridge is cleaned and hydrated you can start refillling and the results are always prefect.


For color cartridge you need to hydrate the print head in a demiralised water as above since it's difficult to dismantle it, and put it in the refilling vessel, vacuum it to 28-29in hg, and open one color valve at a time ensuring that the ink does not come right to the top, once all 3 colors shut all 3 color ink valves and open the vacuum valve to empty slowly.


Once the refilling is completed you can dab test it on a kitchen paper and do printer test if all ok, 99% of the time is ok.



PS: I also use ultrasonic cleaner which i bought on ebay, this also helps unblock stubborn blockages, for best result only use demineralised water pour about 1/2 inch depth and put the cartridges with printer heads in the water and run the cleaning cycle normally one is suffiecent but sometimes you need to do 2-3 cycles.



I hope this helps.


PS: Always use printer specific inks, i use olisers inks and they work fine for me, i am based in london uk, so the 'RS COMPONENTS' company i stated above is uk based but am sure you can get air vacuum generators elsewhere.



Best Regards


Ash

 

[PrintingGuy]

Hi Charlie1939

I also bought the device a few months ago but I haven't had the time to make it work yet. I refill ink cartridges with syringes yet and prime them with the priming tool. For an advice I bought a simple compressor for a refrigerator on eBay. I got one for $55.00 brand new. Usually they have an outlet pipe that sucks the air and you could attach to the vacuum inlet point. It is a good idea to get wired and put a switch on it so you can turn the air compressor on and off.

I haven't used mine because I had other things to take care of but if I get the time I will post the results.
Second thing. I always empty my hp 78 as much as I can, usually up to 96gram. And then I steam the print head with a steam cleaner. It should get out the blockages from the print head. And then prime out every (Sometimes contaminated) ink from the chambers and then refill.
I am not the most professional refiller yet but I had some success. I only have trouble with the Hp 49 color cartridges. I cant make em work. I can see the air bubble in the chambers and print very poor quality.
Good luck with refilling. Laz.

 

[Jack]

Personally, I have tried to refill about 5-8 of my HP "78" cartridges. I usually can get one or two colors to print, but never all three for any length of time. I have tried following the directions with my refill kit, tried to use the "slow fill" allowing the ink to wick in with open syringes, used the "down under process" refill by "Jack", see the website:

http://home.arcor.de/jackspage/rat78ne.html

for the process, with some degree of success and used a Snap-n-Prime and syringe tool to try to remove air from the chambers between the sieve and the nozzles. NOTHING worked well enough to meet my standards of a cartidge that would print reliably and continually until it ran low on ink again.

If you want to use the "down-under" process i recommend the method i posted on my site - not using syringes but the mouth to fill the nozzle chamber. with syringe you just have not enough feeling.

Additionally, some comments:
- If the nozzle chamber is really empty (empty prited cart) it takes awhile to again
gilling it. So be patient, follow the addtiionla hints on my site.

- did you check your ink? Take a cart., and weigh it contionuously, and make "Early refill" about 20 % before the cart runs empty, that is in the 105-110 gramms region for an 78 Cart.

Refill it, and your cart has to work as before. When the cart now makes problems before it runs out at the weight they have nomally at empty (92-98 for 78) then your ink is questionable.

I can say the method i describe indeed revives almost every cart which has been emptied recently and has no mechanical damage (nozzle plate and so on)

 

[mikling]

Be careful with priming clips for emptying. I found they can create more problems than they solve by introducing really tiny foam bubbles that can potentially give trouble on refill. I have moved to a centrifuge as the only reliable way of emptying. Additionally, they also allow better rehydration and cleaning of the print head passages. So for me centrifuge is the only way to go now. For those not equipped with vacuum machines, the centrifuge can be used as an ink setter in lieu of a priming device.

I am planning on offering a centrifuge kit. So for those so inclined to roll their own ( as all refillers are!) The time is right to start collecting parts.... the key part is a 16" cooling fan, you want the motor. They're on clearance sales now. The balance of the items are easily obtainable at Home Depot or a hardware store, and I'll be offering CNC cut acrylic parts to complete it. Stay tuned.

 

[Jack]

@mikling

i would second the warning re clips but i consider the foam bubbles a fairy tale.

I have injected foam (!) into a cart and was still be able to revive it to normal work until next ink-out (measured by weight).

 

[mikling]

Your upside down was the first I tried with the 78 I had. Worked OK as a method of really getting the 78 rehydrated to original levels with multiple refills... an old one. It seemed to go on and off but was much superior than pure gravity or injection To go the upside down, I use a silicon tube and blew into it upside down. With this frustration, I got a clip. That seemed to be better than blowing in that it required less effort and was more predictable. But still the original levels could not be reached. Then I made a vacuum machine and started to play around. That is where I discovered a phenomenon with the evacuation clip.
I ran into the following. First I evacuated with a clip then began refilling with a vacuum chamber. After a couple of colors, I stopped the process because I had to adjust a needle so I slowly released the vacuum to make adjustments. After adjusting, I reapplied the vacuum. Foaming ink began pouring out the filled chambers where previously it was not overfilled. I had to very slowly dissipate the foam by adjusting the vacuum levels where the pressure would increase slow enough to allow the foam to burst. Again, when I first refilled, there was no sign at all of overfilling nor foaming.????
Eventually I got it refilled to the original weight and as expected with a vacuum, perfect results.
The foaming got me thinking????? What the heck.
Then I ran into a similar issue with an HP57s as well. Identical chain of events. What the heck?
The only common element is that use of the clip.
I asked Mick Carlotta about this and he offered that it was probably due to use of the clip.
Built myself a centrifuge and none of this reappeared. So the foaming is not the bubbles after the filter by the printhead. It was microbubbles embedded in the foam that slowly worked it's way up after a refill. This bubbles seemed to have been created due to use of the clip. I suspect that in a normal refill, it explains why many refill to 80% of capacity and top off later after the foaming rises to the top and dissipates.
That's what I discovered anyways.

 

[Jack]

Hi Mikling,

what i can see is you are really over the ears in the refilling issue. when i made down-under the 78 was considered a most difficult cart, and whgat I was looking for was nothing except a woking method for the common Joe, the private refiller. I have vakuum chambers available here, and i did first ideas with this. (see the site).

But, i indeed met similar problems with "foam" coming out of the holes of the carts, and any chamber really was not what i was looking for - too much equipment

Now, the down-under process was the logical conclusion after having understood the working principle of the cart, the foam, the "filter", as untill today people call it.
I use the downunder until today and worry little about it, it works as i want to have it.

Ok, back to your problem - i have made these vacuum ideas years ago, and sure you have done much more than me. But just from intuition, i cannot understand the conclusion you make - its the clip produciung foam?

What i know is that vacuuming the ink (wheter with clip - which just draws the ink ou - or with cmaber - which apllies vacuum at both ends) brings ink to the boiling point of the different liquids - the water at about 150 mbar and the alcohol (if there is any) even higher. So, foaming IN the chamber is not that surprise, but perhaps that the foam can stay after re-pressuring.

I may lack of some informations - if you vacuum with a clip you apply vacuum only to the clip or to the filling holes as well?
and what do you consider "vacuum" , th 10 mbar level, the 50 mbar level or the 150 mbar level?
greetinmgs....