Suitable printer for large volume pigment printing on gloss

[Nozzle]

Ok, it goes something like this - right now I have a couple of Canon printers with CISSs and dye ink that I use for printing leaflets and other promotional type material for people. I use double sided media that produces photographic quality prints on both sides and I'm very happy with it. The problem is that the dyes that I use (InkTec) don't last long in certain environments. If exposed to direct sunlight my printing will fade withing 4-5 days. Indoor it can last up to a few month. I manly use this process for event advertising, which is a niche and I want to expand my offering.

I've been thinking about producing long lasting advertising cheaply and I can see a few ways of achieving this.
1. To use stable dyes. These are expensive to buy retail, can buy cheaper on eBay/Amazon but supply isn't steady - sometimes they are available, sometimes not. In general, not very economical. Hard to get to the price point i need. Verdict - not really suitable.

2. Use a laser printer. I don't know much about laser printers in term of how cheap they are to run, which models are better, where technology is right now and so on. Here's what I know about laser printers (not sure how much of it applies to the current models). They don't print borderless (unless you go with very big and expensive machines they have in print shops) and borderless is a must for me. Toner is toxic and it is a fine powder that escapes from your printer (especially if you refill. In the past it was typical to get toner deposited all over your printer and around it, not sure if it still applies) and can end up in your lungs and be a contributing factor to different health problems including cancer. For this reason I've been using solid ink printers for laser like printing, but they also don't print borderless, so I'm limited in what I can use them for. Plus the dots are more visible than with my inkjet printing. I think all laser printers produce more coarse offset type finish? Unless there's a laser printer out there that's inexpensive and can print borderless, this option is also dead.

3. The last option and the one I have done a LOT of research about lately - printing with pigment. I mean I've been printing with pigment for 15 years now, I'm talking printing for particular segment - advertising, not photography. The advantage of pigment is that it's available quite cheaply and supply is steady (unlike stable dyes). Disadvantage is that you need RC paper to print on it and it's relatively expensive (though I've found some that quite cheap). Printer has to be quick (read have many nozzles), handle pigment well, do borderless and be inexpensive to buy (so if it breaks it would be inexpensive to replace). It also needs to be a CMYK printer (light inks are used much more but cost the same, which affects the cost of printing). Unfortunately, and it's a bummer, there are very few printers that are in this category.
a. The very nice and promising Epson WF 4xxx and 5xxx ranges with big cartridges that have internal CISS looked so sweet and almost like a bingo, until I discovered they don't do borderless. They got disregarded together with Canon Maxify range for this reason.
b. Canon IX7000. A possible candidate. Disadvantage - huge, harder to get inks for, quirky.
c. Epson WF 3620/3640 printers. This is what I settled for for now. 800 black nozzles and 256 nozzles for each color. On paper should be a killer machine. In practice it's quick, but Epson Expression Premium series, that has fewer nozzles destroys it in photo printing speed. Anyone knows why? Original Durabrite Ultra black is very matte (no wonder - printer is optimized for office printing) for this reason when you choose glossy surfaces in the driver it only prints CMY, which produces hardly any gloss differential, but black is low Dmax. By choosing matte paper you make the printer print in CMYK, but black is very matte, gloss differential is horrible. My idea is to replace matte black with gloss black and print with matte paper selection in driver. This seems to be the best idea so far. Printers are cheap. Unfortunately, cartridges are quite small - color 15ml, black 50ml - that's what they take, how much the chip allows to use - another story, the chinese are mum on this point. Another point to worry about - PrecisionCore heads. From experience I know they are super sensitive to the quality of ink, almost like Canon heads.
d. This is a crazy idea I've been having all this time. Epson Expression Premium XP-720/820 on pigment. Has this been done? has anyone tried this? My gut feeling it won't work. These stupid new cartridges with felt will probably block pigment and eventually restrict ink flow. Plus tiny 1.5pl nozzles (above mentioned WF 3620 has 2.8 pl nozzles) sounds like a recipe for disaster. What's attractive about these printers is that they are quick.
e. The last possible idea I have (and the most crazy) is to get one of the older Epson pro printers (2400/2880/1800/1900/2000 and so on) and run it in CMYKCMYK mode. This will be a super quick machine. Heads will handle pigment just fine - these are different heads from all these cheapish printers. Disadvantage is obvious - I will need a rip to do that. I've heard wasatch supports some of these.

So, what do you experienced people think of any of my ideas above? Have I missed anything? Am I wrong about something? I would appreciate any input, sharing ideas or just bouncing them around. Especially if anyone can answer questions in 3d - at this point I'm trying to decide between 3c and 3d. 3e is more of a long term thing because of it technical complexity.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Wow....please let me respond to some of your points -

- UV resistance of dye inks - most of them fade quite quickly, there is only a very limited choice of pretty good inks - those used by Epson and Fujifilm for their Drylab/Surelab printers, they are not cheap and only available in their 200/500/700 ml cartridges and you would have to drain and re-use the ink in the printer of your choice. Please see a separate thread with a detailed evaluation here
http://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/which-pigment-ink-for-epson-1500w.9323/page-17#post-91604

- Pigment inks are better in this respect but you are addressing other shortcomings on glossy papers like gloss problems. Durabrite type inks are not made for photo prints - don't spend further effort on those. The performance of pigment inks is a combination of a particular ink on a specific paper, there is no general rule which combination works well or not so well - you have to test it. Inks for the new Epson P600/800 claim to have a very good black level and gloss performance.
- You may get along as well with cast coated paper - one sort works quite well with pigment inks, another brand almost repells the ink, and cast coated paper is cheaper than RC paper, and works very good with dye inks, cast coated papers may suit your needs.
- The droplet size is not as critical as you may assume, you would see differences only when you look for it in detail.
- I'm not familiar with the specific Epson models you mention above and don't know whether refill cartridges are available, but if you plan to print volume those models with small cartridges just would keep you busy with refilling.
- You may look alternatively for Epson printers L800/A4 or L1800/A3 which are the P50/1400 Photo models with a genuine Epson CISS and are very convenient for refill and volume print - you do not have any interrupts from cartridges to be resetted one way or the other. The P50 and 1400/1500W work with dye inks or pigment inks without problem - lots of people do that, and you may dilute the light colors yourself.
I ran an L300 only a short while with pigment inks, that worked, but I never tried that with my L800 since I'm running an old R265 with pigment inks instead.
- I read several postings that the XP720/820 like models create problems with refill cartridges and dye inks, not even with pigment inks. I would not try that at this time.

 

[Nozzle]

Hi Ink stained Fingers. Thank you for your ideas.

- UV resistance of dye inks - most of them fade quite quickly, there is only a very limited choice of pretty good inks - those used by Epson and Fujifilm for their Drylab/Surelab printers, they are not cheap and only available in their 200/500/700 ml cartridges and you would have to drain and re-use the ink in the printer of your choice. Please see a separate thread with a detailed evaluation here

Yes, I covered this in my original message in 1. I called these inks 'stable'. I would go with these if there was a steady supply of them on eBay or Amazon at low prices, but there isn't. Retail price for them in large cartridges is still high for what I want. I use D6S Epson inks in one of my large formats for printing on glossy / satin RC papers. But printing leaflets with ink that even on eBay costs $150/700ml is too expensive. I can get genuine pigment for ~$15-20 for 700ml.

- Pigment inks are better in this respect but you are addressing other shortcomings on glossy papers like gloss problems. Durabrite type inks are not made for photo prints - don't spend further effort on those.

In 3c above I wrote that I tested DuraBrite pigment with glossy papers and in CMY mode (choosing glossy media in the driver) they produce almost perfect results (hardly any gloss differential). Their black is non encapsulated 'Matte' black that produces horrible GD on glossy surfaces, but I'm planning to replace it with Photo black and print in CMYK mode by choosing matte paper in the driver. I could also use satin RC paper that is available.

Inks for the new Epson P600/800 claim to have a very good black level and gloss performance.

I don't need to go so high end - I need cheap. My problem isn't ink as I've said - I have a steady supply of all kinds of pigment ink - InkTec, genuine at ridiculous prices.. Inks that I have access to image very nicely. My problem is how to get this ink onto paper.

- You may get along as well with cast coated paper - one sort works quite well with pigment inks, another brand almost repells the ink, and cast coated paper is cheaper than RC paper, and works very good with dye inks, cast coated papers may suit your needs.

Hmm.. I've never seen cast coated paper that could accept pigment. All that I've tried (that would make 10-15 different ones over the years) made pigment pool, creating blotchy mid-tones and shadows. I would love to find one that works though.

- The droplet size is not as critical as you may assume, you would see differences only when you look for it in detail.

Well, I only quoted droplet sizes because I've always assumed (an this seems to be general consensus) that heads that generate finer drops (like 1.5 pcl) nave finer nozzles and pigment doesn't like finer nozzles. That's why pigment heads have larger nozzles, like 3 pcl, or sometimes 2 pcl.

- I'm not familiar with the specific Epson models you mention above and don't know whether refill cartridges are available, but if you plan to print volume those models with small cartridges just would keep you busy with refilling.

Yep, you've nailed it. That's what I'm trying to avoid if possible - wasting too much time refilling

- You may look alternatively for Epson printers L800/A4 or L1800/A3 which are the P50/1400 Photo models with a genuine Epson CISS and are very convenient for refill and volume print - you do not have any interrupts from cartridges to be resetted one way or the other. The P50 and 1400/1500W work with dye inks or pigment inks without problem - lots of people do that, and you may dilute the light colors yourself.

I hear you. That's a good advice.. and I've looked into this as well. L800 only has 90 nozzles per color - that's not enough what I need them for. Here in Oz we don't have the 'L' models anyway, we just have EcoTank Expression and EcoTank WorkForce series. The best of them, the WF ET-4550 has 400 black nozzles and 128 nozzles for each color. This is an interesting machine, but at $700 (~$500US) it's not a cheap choice. For this sort of money I would rather buy a second hand 3800 or 3880. Epson WF 3620 mentioned above Has 800 black nozzles and 256 for each color and only costs $150 (~$110US), but uses cartridges ...

- I read several postings that the XP720/820 like models create problems with refill cartridges and dye inks, not even with pigment inks. I would not try that at this time.

Yes, I've heard that they are finicky. What If one makes a CISS with original cartridges which don't have this felt inside like refillables do? I've seen a video on youtube one guy drilling holes in original cartridges and replacing original chips with ARC ones to create a CISS. Would that work?

At this point the best choice for me seems WF 3620 printers - lots of nozzles, replaceable waste containers. The only problem is smallish cartridges. I'm thinking of connecting tubes to them and making a CISS of a sort, so they refill by themselves and I would just need to take them out and put back when needed, without feeling up with ink.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

- I wouldn't experiment with the XP720 etc models and use tricky work arounds.

- I'm printing with pigment inks on a R265 - 1.5pl droplets - since a long time - >10 000 A4 sheets , that works, and other people with the R285, 1400, 1500W.

- The Ecotank type models don't offer borderless printing except the L800/1800, just run two of them...the refill convenience will save you quite some time.

- there are always some drylab ink sales on Ebay - surplus or whatever - they run typically at ~100$ +S&H, but that's not a stable shop like supply
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Genuin...260266?hash=item3d1c90daaa:g:eyQAAOSwaA5WlxfE

- I don't like the photo black of the Inktec pigment inks at all - the metallic sheen is very irritating, but o.k. - that's a personal preference, but you are right - there are quite some pigment ink bargains on the market.

- Or get a Pro 4800 type unit, even used, and print on roll paper, everything is there, a cutter, large cartridges, good speed, inks at your choice.

 

[Nozzle]

- I wouldn't experiment with the XP720 etc models and use tricky work arounds.

That's what I tend to think as well.

- I'm printing with pigment inks on a R265 - 1.5pl droplets - since a long time - >10 000 A4 sheets , that works, and other people with the R285, 1400, 1500W.

Ok, that's very useful info, thank you. You can't bit statistics.

- there are always some drylab ink sales on Ebay - surplus or whatever - they run typically at ~100$ +S&H, but that's not a stable shop like supply

Yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about .. Once shipped to Oz, they become ~ $150AU/700ml, fine for photos but way too expensive for leaflet printing.

- I don't like the photo black of the Inktec pigment inks at all - the metallic sheen is very irritating, but o.k. - that's a personal preference, but you are right - there are quite some pigment ink bargains on the market.

Have you noticed that even laser toner when printed on paper has some gloss differential? Have you ever heard anyone complaining about that? The point is that some gloss differential with this kind of printing is fine, we're not talking about some exhibition grade photos, we are talking about leaflets and such.. I don't worry about that, I'm also planning to use some satin rc paper, which cost the same as gloss. I should've called this thread '... printing on RC' instead. Plus, with my recent purchases of genuine HP vivera pigment in bulk I think it will be a while before I buy InkTec again. Yep, I'm going to use that pigment with Epson printers.

- Or get a Pro 4800 type unit, even used, and print on roll paper, everything is there, a cutter, large cartridges, good speed, inks at your choice.

Ideas like this I pondered a few years ago. There's one huge problem with this approach. Cutting your roll paper into small sheets. Imagine. 3000 A5 or DL leaflets - cutting them out from that roll paper. I think you would smash the printer and curse the minute you got this idea in your head before you finish the job. And then imagine how the stack of your finished leaflets would look like It's a damn good idea, I just could never come up with a hustle free way of cutting the roll paper. I guess some kind of robotic hi-end cutter would be in order..

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

the Pro 4000, 4400, 4800 etc have a paper cutter in the machine, like the bigger Epson printers. That makes them different to the 38xx models. O.k., it all depends what happens else with the printed output - e.g. folding ?

Gloss of laser prints - the toners tend more to the semiglossy look, closer to copy paper, and since most of them don't print photos gloss diff doesn't matter. But it's funny - there is just a thread running on a German printing forum which laser printer gives a high gloss output.

 

[Nozzle]

Thank you for your input, Ink stained Fingers, I really appreciate it.

 

[The Hat]

I reckon its back to square one again, you’ll have to modify they way you work to get the job to suite the way the printer works and not the other way round, because clearly inkjet printer can do most thing but not all things, and all your special specifications are just outside the printers remit.

I went and got a Pro 1 for such a task, but boy was I wrong.
Comprise works..

 

[Nozzle]

The conundrum is that pigment is cheap but RC paper for it is expensive (2-2.5 times more expensive, to be exact), of course it is a much better paper. On the other hand dyes are more expensive (about 5-10 times more expensive) than pigment, but paper is much cheaper. After careful consideration and calculations it seems to me that I will need to create two new products, not one. One is printing with UV stable dyes on cast coated paper (middle price category) and another one with pigment of photographic paper (premium price category).

Both will need an Epson printer. I lean towards Epson WF 3620 mentioned above. Refillable cartridges should arrive any day now. Then I will convert it to photo black and profile. I expect photographic results. Can post my findings if anyone cares.

 

[The Hat]

@Nozzle, Of course we care, we don’t just want to head about your cockups, we also like to know when you get it just perfect, good results and happy endings always bring a smile to everybody’s faces, even if you can’t see them…