Scan paper to see texture

[Smile]

Hi, I'm looking for a way to scan paper to see paper texture using a scanner 1200DPI.

I know a microscope would be better, but my problem is that I can see paper texture if I open image in photoshop and then reduce the brightness. If I do not do this then the image is just white. The problem I have is that image gets magenta cast.



I wonder how they managed to scan paper texture here:
http://www.dpandi.com/newsreviews/reviews/bock/index.html

 

[fotofreek]

I think that the texture would show up best cross-lighted and photographed. Looks like the color temperature of the light source also aided in demonstrating the paper texture.

 

[Smile]

I would appreciate if somebody who has better resolution scanner for example 4800dpi

epson perfection v300 or v350
canon LiDE 700F

or any other decent scanner could scan a plain sheet of paper and then in photoshop adjust levels all the way to the right. Then crop and post here.

Thanks.

 

[Grandad35]

Plain paper
Scanned at 9600 ppi on an Epson 4990
100% crop at 600x600 pixels (approx 1.5 mm square)
levels pushed way to the right
No sharpening
No attempt at color management (which would be futile with the levels pushed that far to the right)
Average color across entire image is 35/23/12/0 for C/M/Y/K

 

[Smile]

Thanks for reply, what software did you use? My friend sent me this image made using Canon Lide80 2400x2400 optical scanner with vuescan 8.2.38

No sharping:


USM in photoshop


How can your image be less sharp?

 

[Grandad35]

My image was straight from the scanner at 9600 dpi (you asked for a high resolution scan), using the Epson default scanner program. A 2400x2400 scan will naturally appear sharper because of the smaller details. It is also possible that Vuescan applied some sharpening or that the two papers are just different (I used "Xerox Premium Multipurpose paper").

 

[Smile]

My image was straight from the scanner at 9600 dpi (you asked for a high resolution scan), using the Epson default scanner program. A 2400x2400 scan will naturally appear sharper because of the smaller details. It is also possible that Vuescan applied some sharpening or that the two papers are just different (I used "Xerox Premium Multipurpose paper").

You misunderstood me this not 2400x2400 scan, it's scaned with a scanner that has 2400x2400dpi optical resolution the crop is only 613x613 pixels (yours was 600x600 pixels) so it can't look sharper, can it?

Here are settings that my friend used:



Also I asked to scan some photo paper too for comparison:



Can you try to duplicate his results? I'm thinking to upgrade my scanner to something like 8800F (it has same resolution as your Epson 4990) and now I'm confused. I want to see what 4800x9600dpi optical resolution scanner is capable of if scans with lide80 at 2400x2400dpi optical resolution is that good compared to my crap 1200dpix1200 optical resolution scanner.

 

[Grandad35]

Smile,

What are you going to use your scanner for? I have yet to see a print that has detail that can't be captured at 600 ppi (300 ppi is probably adequate in most cases). Since a good scanner does its best to reject changes caused by the surface of the paper, looking at the paper's texture may not be the best way to judge a scanner.

Because I don't have a target with detail in the 9600 ppi range, I used a photo with light skin tones (so that the individual dots of ink didn't run together), scanned it at 9600x9600, cropped an area at 600x600 pixels (1.59x1.59 mm on the photo), and pushed the levels to the right to amplify the color. What you see are the individual dots of ink from a 2 pl printer.


This illustrates why 9600 ppi is overkill for photos - you can easily see the individual dots of ink at this level.

When I scan 35 mm negatives, I find that 2400 ppi is more than adequate unless the negatives were shot with a very good camera (which mine weren't).

Your friend's 2400x2400 scan cropped to 613x613 pixels gives a sample that is 6.5 x 6.5 mm on the paper - 16x the area of a 9600 x 9600 ppi scan. This obviously makes individual details (like the wood fibers in the paper) look smaller on the image. More numerous, smaller details from the lower magnification will appear to be sharper.

One other point should be remembered - 9600 ppi translates to a pixel spacing of 2.6 microns. The wavelength of light is on the order of 0.3 to 0.7 microns. At 9600 ppi, we are nearing the ability of visible light to discern detail.

You might want to take a look at this forum, as it is all about scanners (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.periphs.scanners/topics).

 

[Smile]

Thanks for your tests.

Well I'm going to use the scanner for one of my projects. I need to make images of paper texture to compare among different papers. Also I would like to use it for my 35mm slides and to scan photos since my old scanner is practically obsolete.

AFAIK for photos even my scanner is good enough, but for slides the 8800F, V350, V500 are recommended from reviews I found.
I know that I need dedicated solution if I want superb slide quality (or V700/750) but for that price it's overkill, because once you scan all your slides a dedicated machine has no other use. And like you said you need very good quality originals to benefit. The V700/750 are very nice but overpriced at least twice IMO.

Your scan is very nice, but like you said "What you see are the individual dots of ink from a 2 pl printer."
I need to find out if it's possible to see enough detail (not paper fibers) but just enough to judge about paper surface that has no ink on it. Could you just place a plain paper sheet with say some glossy photo paper and scan in-between them to show transition (like my friend has done) from one paper surface to another?

Try to scan one sample at optical resolution 2400x2400dpi (to compare with my friend results side by side)
then at 4800x4800dpi
then at 9600x9600dpi

crop them to same ~600x600 pixels.

I have been thinking perhaps the forum reduces your image quality, try to post on same site I do:
Here is a 3 step tutorial how to do this (since the forum in not English)

Go to http://www.ipix.lt then do as shown on first step.

step2
step3

Thanks for your time

 

[Grandad35]

I used a sheet of Kirkland (Costco) glossy photo paper with a sheet of the same Xerox paper that was used before overlaid for these scans. All 3 scans were of exactly the same area, so the pixel count is different for each.
2400x2400
4800x4800
9600x9600
The "Levels" setting in the scan program was 200/1/255 for all of them.

I did not post crops because the high resolution scans appear to lack detail when this is done - when viewed at the same physical paper size on the same display size, the detail appears to be about the same. From this I would think that my scanner wasn't really giving 9600 ppi of data if the previous scan of the ink dots didn't show the ink dots with so much detail.

By posting the larger images, you can play with them as you wish.

From what I can see, there is no visible texture on the photo paper, but maybe the Epson scanner rejects this effect better than the other scanner.

I would also comment that the other scanner appears to show "banding" in several areas of the photo papers.