Dark prints with Argyllcms printer profile

[JJ34]

Hello everybody
I am new here but not a printing newbie ...
Still I am new to Argyllcms to generate new printer profiles for my Epson 3880 using a Colormunki Design spectro.
My display is calibrated with Argyllcms to 120 CD, and I know the relation between display brightness and dark prints.
As I do not really want to lower my display brightness, is there a way to modify the printer profiles to print less dark prints ?
Sorry if that has been answered before ...
Thanks
JJ.

 

[RogerB]

Hello everybody
I am new here but not a printing newbie ...
Still I am new to Argyllcms to generate new printer profiles for my Epson 3880 using a Colormunki Design spectro.
My display is calibrated with Argyllcms to 120 CD, and I know the relation between display brightness and dark prints.
As I do not really want to lower my display brightness, is there a way to modify the printer profiles to print less dark prints ?
Sorry if that has been answered before ...
Thanks
JJ.

If you have generated a good profile with ArgyllCMS the prints will be a good colorimetric match to the colours in the image file. In other words, the print lightness values will be a good match to the lightness values in the file. The only way that you can make them match visually is to illuminate the print in such a way that the paper white looks as bright as your display. If you do this then all the tonal values should look pretty close to those on your display.

If you dont't want to view the prints in a reasonable light then edit the image before you print it. Don't think about tampering with the profile - that's not what profiles are for. If you use Photoshop then all you need to do is to apply a curves adjustment layer and lift the centre a bit likethis:-

That gives you more contrast in the darker tones, which is probably what you want. You obviously need to experiment a bit to get an adjustment that you find acceptable, but once you've done it you can probably use it for every printed image.

 

[JJ34]

Thanks RogerB for that hint.
Printer profiling uses mathematicaly generated patches and the monitor (brightness) is not used in the printer profile generation.
But when adjusting pictures it is different, the monitor setting is part of the picture assessment. In the past I used to set my monitor calibration to 80 CD, and that was a good match to the prints, but now with my aging eyes (70 ) I need to use a brighter monitor ( maybe I'll try again with a 100 CD setting ).
Also before the Colormunki, I had (still have) a Colorvision Datacolor spectro, and its software has a profile tweaking facility enabling quite a few afterward changes, I used the Luminosity tweak to adjust the print brightness to match my display.
So I was looking for something similar in Argyll, but I am not a color managment guru and Argyll Colprof has many parameters that are beyond my reach (understanding or knowledge or ... ) !
Mind you I tried your trick in the past too, but the results are variable with the picture content, high key, low key and so on, and was looking for something more straightforward at least for the average prints, when printing a more elaborate pic I don't mind doing a few tests of course.

 

[RogerB]

Thanks RogerB for that hint.
Printer profiling uses mathematicaly generated patches and the monitor (brightness) is not used in the printer profile generation.
But when adjusting pictures it is different, the monitor setting is part of the picture assessment. In the past I used to set my monitor calibration to 80 CD, and that was a good match to the prints, but now with my aging eyes (70 ) I need to use a brighter monitor ( maybe I'll try again with a 100 CD setting ).
Also before the Colormunki, I had (still have) a Colorvision Datacolor spectro, and its software has a profile tweaking facility enabling quite a few afterward changes, I used the Luminosity tweak to adjust the print brightness to match my display.
So I was looking for something similar in Argyll, but I am not a color managment guru and Argyll Colprof has many parameters that are beyond my reach (understanding or knowledge or ... ) !
Mind you I tried your trick in the past too, but the results are variable with the picture content, high key, low key and so on, and was looking for something more straightforward at least for the average prints, when printing a more elaborate pic I don't mind doing a few tests of course.

The profiling experts (I don't pretend to be one!) all seem to deprecate any editing of output profiles. It seems to be felt genrally that the Datacolor facility was put there because the profiles were not very good in the first place, but I've never used it so can't really comment on that.

I really do believe however that the "prints too dark" syndrome is just as likely to be "viewing light too dim" as "monitor too bright". It may be heresy, but I fail to see how changing monitor luminance from 120 to 100 cd/m2 will solve the problem when viewing conditions may vary by two orders of magnitude. You can't match them all. The fact is that 50% grey in a print will only match 50% grey on a monitor if 0% grey on the print (paper white) is as bright as 0% grey on the monitor, and that needs a lot of light on the print.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I'm reading this thread but I don't really see a hook yet to hang on in this discussion, prints are too dark with a profile generated with ArgyllCMS, this is the starting point. Does a comparable profile, for this printer, paper, inks exist which was created with Colormunki software instead of the Argyllcms software ? How were profiles created earlier, before the use of Argyllcms , with the Datacolor Spyder ? And those were not considered adequate so you switched to Argyllcms ?

 

[JJ34]

Well I must agree with the Datacolor quality, reason why I bought the Colormunki after all. The Datacolor is a spectrocolorimeter with filters where the Colormunki is a spectrophotometer, it is said that it makes alot of difference, also the Colormunki is an all in one solution : monitor, printer, TV, projector good enough for the average Joe (me) where the Datacolor only does printers.
But to make it cheaper, I found (the bay) a "Design" white version of the Colormunki spectro and have not even tried the Colormunki software as I read a lot about the superiority of the Argyll solution.
Previously I already had calibrated my monitor with it and the result is that much better than with my previous EZColor software and the DTP94 sensor (of which I have two, one new ...), so impressed that I eventually decided to try the printer profiling too !
Even so I haven't tried with expensive photo paper, the first results with average paper show a very satisfactory color quality, just a bit dark.
I cannot really compare with previous prints as other elements have changed too, a new high quality monitor (Viewsonic VP2770-LED), changed printer inks as well (Inkthrift Pro dye) but this is temporary as I will change back to pigment as soon as some other non photo jobs are over, and my lighting too ( Leds Vs low energy fluo bulbs).
But I am not a professional and my photo printing needs are pure hobby (don't print a lot either), still I know very well that printed reflectiv output will never match that of a monitor transmissiv (?) quality.

In the mean time I have printed the same picture with the curves uplift, and it's quite getting better I must say, will have to fiddle a bit with the curve, a bit more uplift in the shadows maybe ...
and also give it a try with good photo paper

PS: about lowering the monitor's brightness (in the process of its calibration of course), I used it and it does make a difference. When it is less bright you naturally tend to adjust the pictures brighter, of course cannot give actual numbers but it is noticeable.

 

[JJ34]

I'm reading this thread but I don't really see a hook yet to hang on in this discussion, prints are too dark with a profile generated with ArgyllCMS, this is the starting point. Does a comparable profile, for this printer, paper, inks exist which was created with Colormunki software instead of the Argyllcms software ? How were profiles created earlier, before the use of Argyllcms , with the Datacolor Spyder ? And those were not considered adequate so you switched to Argyllcms ?

Hi ISF
Just got your post in the mean time I was typing the previous reply to RogerB,
Well yes the actual subject is that after switching to Argyllcms printer profiling, the first results show a darker output than what I was used to with my previous solutions (see reply above)
So I was wondering if there is a method to overcome this while in printer profile process of Argyll, maybe some parameters to change or other ways.
It seems to me a bit crude to have to modify my picture every time before its actual printing in PS.
The new profile show excellent results color wise, why should it not be possible to fix the brightness too ?

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

I don't think that an 'expensive' photo paper makes such a big difference for this discussion, there are various parameters which may justify a higher price over another paper, black level, gamut, evenness of the gloss, the feel of a paper - a haptic parameter to name a few.
I'm using Qimage for printing which easily allows adjustments just for the printing process such as changing the gamma , makes profile selection easy, and has lots of other features, for layouts , etc. It may be of interest nevertheless how a real Colormunki profile compares to the Argyllcms profile and whether that would give you the same brightness issue.

 

[Ink stained Fingers]

Another question came into my mind whether Argyll is trying with the profile to compensate a target which was printed too light, a question around the driver/software settings like ICM off, color mgmt off in the software you are using to print the target patches and the settings you are using the profile with. Double profiling with unsuitable settings may give similar effects.
Profiling software packages offer a range of adjustments for the profile, typically covering the typical viewing conditions, but beyond that I'm not a friend of profile tuning to acheive a particular look. If I want to acheive a particular effect I rather would do those adjustments in the photo editor, or to a degree with Qimage.

 

[The Hat]

When starting to make your first profile with any of these profile applications would the printer not have to be re-set to default, printer handles the colour first. ?