Epson Surecolor P400 Issues?...

Julia

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I am new here so Hello everybody.
I also have the SC P400. I graduated from the R1800 Photo which was a brilliant printer but gave up on me after 10 years (not bad!) despite expensive and valiant attempts of every kind to unclog the nozzles. My problem is that all the settings are pretty well completely different on the new printer. Unlike most people here I am not printing photos I am designing prints using Photoshop as a means of laying down colours. I use a graphics pad. Because I really do not know any better, I have always designed on screen and and then used the setting that seemed to suit best (eg old printer Standard or Vivid 1.5, 1.8, 2.2) and made a careful note of which of those used. Lots of proofing of course because what you see is not what you get. So having got the perfect proof I could always reproduce it. None of the new printer settings really relate to the old ones. Of course the design remains and an approximation of the colours. It seems I have to re-proof every one of my prints! Not easy I can tell you. My colours are subtle.
One of the things I notice is that the difference between the colours in the R1800 and the SC P400 is that the former had 2 blues and two reds (effectively) the new printer only has Cyan for blues and effectively 3 reds one of which is orange (plus yellow, two blacks and optimiser). This biases my original prints heavily towards Cyan which drives me mad! I am using exactly the same paper (Somerset enhanced Velvet or Epson matt for proofing).
Do photographers have the same problem moving from one printer to another? How do they manage to produce an identical image from different printers? Or do they not have occasion to save them?
I read about Paper Profiles but it is now too late and I think beyond me to start again. I am very OLD! I thought I might be able to kill the cyan with magenta but really that doesn't work because it effects all the other colours too much. You might expect it to be proportionate BUT!!!
I would really like to know from others if they have this problem and in what way they have experienced it...and any other comments. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss it. I work alone...no-one I know does anything similar. My teachers have been Trial and Error!
Thank you, Julia
 

Ink stained Fingers

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I hope we are not discussing different questions/issues in the same thread here - about the P400.
Yes, there is so much confusing stuff about color management on the internet but the basics are not that difficult.
I read about Paper Profiles but it is now too late and I think beyond me to start again. I am very OLD! I
This should never be a reason not to look into color mgmt.
When you talk about the R1800 and the P400 - these are printers of different generations - the drivers , the user interface, the hardware, the number of colors etc all have changed. But rather think simple - either one of these printers takes RGB color data to print - and whether they use additional colors - blue - orange - no light magenta as on some other printers etc - should not be your prime concern, printers just should print the colors correctly as they are supplied from the computer by your software.
We can go into great detail whether this or that color set is better or not , we can talk about the size of color spaces, rendering intents, all very interesting but as well confusing.
You are addressing another issue you have observed - that the printer does not print the colors as you see them on the monitor and you need to do lots of adjustments. Yes, no wonder, printer and monitor don't know of each other how they render colors and contrast, and that's the whole purpose of color management to get them aligned. You can
start with some simple steps or apply instruments etc for that purpose. It's up to you how much accuracy you expect or you need -e.g. for professional reasons.
There is one approach to get a monitor and printer in line - you start with a test printout with standard printer settings and adjust the monitor to resemble the print output - you can get pretty good results with this approach - under some conditions - that you don't change anything with your hardware setup, environment, light, paper , inks, driver etc later or you go the technical route with monitor calibration etc.
 

Julia

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Thank you. I am sorry if I put this matter in the wrong area. I couldn't see how to 'Introduce myself either.
Ink Stained Fingers...
My working conditions are not compatible with best working practice. Light varies during the day. The monitor is set fairly bright but I have not fiddled with any colour settings...but I see what you mean by matching printer output to screen. If I were starting again I would be more scientific but that isn't my problem at present. I would be scared to mess up what I already have and I am half way through matching my current prints to the new printer's settings which means altering a copy of the original!
On the R1800, roughly speaking what I saw on screen is what what I got. If I had put in a blue sky, I didn't get the printer printing Cyan. I always had to mess about with proofing because a transparent glowing screen cannot be printed and I am making pictures which require a subtle relationship of colours on paper. Roughly speaking what I saw on screen related to what I printed using one or other of the settings available.
I am in the situation of showing the new printer my old images (look the same on screen) and choosing one or other of the SC P400 's settings...none of which interpret my original colours correctly into print. 'Standard' is probably the nearest and Adobe RGB better for intensity of colour albeit incorrect. I check all settings as tiny prints in order to choose the most appropriate.
I am just surprised that the new printer is so far out from what I see on screen.

I would be interested to know how you (personally) create an image or maybe adjust a photograph to what you want and are able to reproduce it identically a year later. Do you use the settings on the printer...if so which and why? I understand that you match the screen to the printers output but what settings do you use then? If you have time.

Unfortunately 10 years ago when I started using the ink jet printer for my prints, (I was a screen printer and etcher) I had no tuition and obviously made ignorant choices although I thought that was what the settings were for! Many thanks, Julia.
 

The Hat

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Hi @Julia, yes I noticed you missed the Members Introduction, but if you still wish to avail of it:- https://www.printerknowledge.com/forums/member-introductions.21/

I am sorry you are having problems with your new printer trying to print your colour images.

Firstly, each printer is different so all the setting you had on the old one won’t necessarily work on the new one, yes they are both Epson printers but there the similarities end.

All Printers use a separate print driver specially made for that particular printers and until you learn to use and manulapate these new setting, you’re never going to get to grips with the new printer...
 

Ink stained Fingers

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What are you doing with your prints - selling them or placing them on a wall for an exhibition or ? Are you using genuine Epson inks and papers - different types - glossy matte, lustre, silk, fabric ?? or just one or two types ?
Which type of system and software are you using - Windows 10 or ...?
You are asking how I'm handling print output - I'm using color profiles which standardizes the color output along industry standardized rules and methods, such color profiles are available for you via the driver - for Epson papers and Epson inks, you can tie in 3rd party profiles into the Windows driver - some paper suppliers make those available - I'm not familiar with the Mac environment. And I have the monitor adjusted to match (within technical limits) print output via the display card driver. I'm editing photos but do not create graphics artwork and I don't use specific color sets - e.g. Pantone .
I think you should not be forced to start adjustments on the driver settings every time again when you start something new, you may use a set of typical test images of which about everybody has an idea how they should look - skin tones - landscape etc.
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printer-test-images/
Print one or two of those and inspect the output - do those prints look o.k. - or too dark or light - to green, red, color balance whatever ? Do not compare them to the monitor image too much at this time .
You can make color, contrast adjustments in the driver, or activate the ICM option, if you use an Epson paper and Epson inks. And once you get the print output correct you can do a similar action with the monitor - about every graphics card offers color adjustments, or the monitor itsels allows settings for brightness, color temperature etc, and you bring the monitor in line with the print output. Please reduce the brightness somewhat in this setup.
 

Julia

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What are you doing with your prints - selling them or placing them on a wall for an exhibition or ? Are you using genuine Epson inks and papers - different types - glossy matte, lustre, silk, fabric ?? or just one or two types ?
Which type of system and software are you using - Windows 10 or ...?
You are asking how I'm handling print output - I'm using color profiles which standardizes the color output along industry standardized rules and methods, such color profiles are available for you via the driver - for Epson papers and Epson inks, you can tie in 3rd party profiles into the Windows driver - some paper suppliers make those available - I'm not familiar with the Mac environment. And I have the monitor adjusted to match (within technical limits) print output via the display card driver. I'm editing photos but do not create graphics artwork and I don't use specific color sets - e.g. Pantone .
I think you should not be forced to start adjustments on the driver settings every time again when you start something new, you may use a set of typical test images of which about everybody has an idea how they should look - skin tones - landscape etc.
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printer-test-images/
Print one or two of those and inspect the output - do those prints look o.k. - or too dark or light - to green, red, color balance whatever ? Do not compare them to the monitor image too much at this time .
You can make color, contrast adjustments in the driver, or activate the ICM option, if you use an Epson paper and Epson inks. And once you get the print output correct you can do a similar action with the monitor - about every graphics card offers color adjustments, or the monitor itsels allows settings for brightness, color temperature etc, and you bring the monitor in line with the print output. Please reduce the brightness somewhat in this setup.

For the record:- Windows 7 (I am trying to avoid Windows 10!), always Epson Inks, Matt Paper Heavyweight for proofing, Somerset Velvet enhanced Fine art Paper (much the same as Epson's). Yes, I do sell my prints although not a lot now. I made my living mostly as a screen-printer (artist) for many years...I use the computer and CS2 (very dodgy now!) plus graphics pad. I am not using the new printer's fine tuning apart from choosing Adobe RGB or Standard settings. I am making adjustments to copies of my 'originals' in Photoshop until the new printer prints what I want to see.
Originals meaning as saved in PShop for R1800.
https://juliamatcham.wordpress.com/invitation/latest-original-inkjet-prints/ (everything else there too)
I absolutely agree that I should have been doing things differently! I imagine there is no way I can transform my current images into a more reliable form ...I don't even understand the language of 'graphics card' and 'adjustments in the driver' or what you do with 'ICM' so I guess I will just soldier on and make sure I print a few more of each print before I am sunk by the next software change. Thanks anyway. When I get past rescuing current prints and start something new, maybe I will try a different approach. Julia
 

Julia

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Thank you for sharing. Your "Not Tuscany" is a story waiting to be published, a movie to be filmed. So good.
Thanks! Very cheering. Not many people get that far on my web-site! So glad you enjoyed it. It is quite a long read!
Cheers, Julia
 

Ink stained Fingers

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I regret that we couldn't work out a simpler way for you to handle the driver settings for your printer - with less fiddling around and the trial and error approach .
 

stratman

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I read about Paper Profiles but it is now too late and I think beyond me to start again. I am very OLD!
Maybe, maybe not. Without fiddling with any number of settings to tweak the output of your printer, you can try first with selecting the proper "Profile" setting and see if that gets you closer. (See link below for what profiles Epson already installed with your printer.)

The ICC or ICM printer profile, interchangeable terminology, is a set of printer instructions (software) made for a specific printer-ink-paper combination that is supposed to give the most faithful color rendition possible for that combination of printer, ink and paper (albeit tweaking other settings may be needed). Change one of these variable and you need to use a different ICC profile.

Epson supplies its own ICC profiles for their printer, their ink, and their papers. See here for what is available with your P400. Use an aftermarket ink or some other manufacturer's paper and the Epson ICC profile may not give pleasing results and you will either have to obtain a custom ICC profile, tweak the controls of the printer, tweak the image in your graphics application like Photoshop, or a combination of any or all.

The idea is to select the correct Epson ICC profile for the Epson paper you are using. Of course you should use Epson ink for best results.

Since you also use non-Epson paper(s), using a custom ICC profile should improve your results without (or before) tweaking Photoshop or printer controls. Will it resolve all your issues? Maybe not but it may get you closer to what you want.

Paper manufacturers may provide custom ICC profiles for their papers. A custom ICC for your Moab Somerset Enhanced Velvet paper can be found here on Moab's web site. The Somerset Enhanced Velvet is the last ICC profile in the list for the P400 printer, at least when I just looked. On that page I linked you should read or watch the supplied video on how to install and use the Moab custom ICC profile. There are several steps to be performed but the instructions are pretty good.

FYI - if you use the Moab custom ICC profile and your print comes out darker than expected or with color shifts, you may be "double profiling" meaning the image is printed using both Epson's ICC profile and the Moab ICC profile. Post a new thread here and hopefully we (InkStainedFingers) can help.

Hopefully, using the proper ICC profile will resolve some or many of your issues.
 
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